Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)

[duffo]

I enjoy the video but I would still prefer a connection at Mccowan/Sheppard. Maybe it could turn south to stc from there, but that would likely mean no eastward extension to markham rd, malvern, in the next few decades.

I see this working best as a branched line.. of Line 2! The first branch would turn westwards Sheppard/McCowan along Sheppard and take over the existing Line 4 ROW to Yonge. The second branch would go out to Malvern. Neither branch needs the capacity that the core segment of Line 2 provides.

 

[Rainforest]

I also strongly agree that Line 4 should go to STC as this improves the network effects, which seems to be under-appreciated by many observers who prefer slavish alignment to the grid, or eventual extension to Malvern (for which subway seems like overkill).

Sending Line 4 to Sheppard & McCowan comes with a number of network benefits on its own. It is not just a matter of following the grid.

If both Lines 2 and 4 meet at Sheppard & McCowan, then all buses from the north and north-east will connect to both lines.

If Line 4 diverts to STC, then that's not the case. For example, the McCowan North bus will either terminate at Sheppard & McCowan and only connect to Line 2 (anyone who wants Line 4 will have to transfer again at STC), or get extended west to Brimley or wherever the last Line 4 station on Sheppard is located.

 

[mossynukes]

Sending Line 4 to Sheppard & McCowan comes with a number of network benefits on its own. It is not just a matter of following the grid.

If both Lines 2 and 4 meet at Sheppard & McCowan, then all buses from the north and north-east will connect to both lines.

If Line 4 diverts to STC, then that's not the case. For example, the McCowan North bus will either terminate at Sheppard & McCowan and only connect to Line 2 (anyone who wants Line 4 will have to transfer again at STC), or get extended west to Brimley or wherever the last Line 4 station on Sheppard is located.

completely agree. Reese made an argument in his video about transferring just to ride one stop on the subway, but we can apply this to every passenger coming from a bus at Sheppard and McCowan, whether east of Mccowan or north of Sheppard, trying to get on line 4, if it terminates at STC

 

[T3G]

I can't comprehend on what basis having to transfer to ride one stop is a problem. You can't run service from every corner of the city to every corner of the city, the reality of transit is that somewhere, someone, is going to have to transfer to complete their journey.

 

[Rainforest]

I can't comprehend on what basis having to transfer to ride one stop is a problem. You can't run service from every corner of the city to every corner of the city, the reality of transit is that somewhere, someone, is going to have to transfer to complete their journey.

Fair enough, but why introduce an artificial transfer at McCowan & Sheppard? If anything, it will be a bit cheaper for Line 4 to stay under Sheppard all the way to McCowan (shorter distance).

 

[Reecemartin]

I enjoy the video but I would still prefer a connection at Mccowan/Sheppard. Maybe it could turn south to stc from there, but that would likely mean no eastward extension to markham rd, malvern, in the next few decades.

What doesn't make sense to me is terminating it at STC. Terminating it at Sheppard n McCowan makes the entire line available to continue eastward to Markham or possibly even Morningside and actually impacting Scarborough transit needs

It’s just not at all uncommon for a rapid transit line to divert to hit a major hub and then divert back. There are lots of places on the tube where such things happen, the great thing about tunnels is that we can divert off of a major corridor to hit a Hub and then go back. It’s way better to end an extension at an existing hub rather than a maybe someday hub.

I can't comprehend on what basis having to transfer to ride one stop is a problem. You can't run service from every corner of the city to every corner of the city, the reality of transit is that somewhere, someone, is going to have to transfer to complete their journey.

I never suggested we should run service from every corner of the city to every other corner, this is just clearly a place where you should connect the existing hub instead of making a new satellite hub that breaks a ton of connections, planners can choose to send the new subway to an existing hub and everyone wins. I personally would prefer my trips not needlessly have a transfer and associated extra time added because . . .? “Extending” buses so that they travel to scarborough Centre (where they mostly already go) still is fine because it also means those riders get direct access to the Durham scarborough BRT and various go services.

This just feels like the perfect solution fallacy, of course everyone cannot have a perfect direct trip, but a connection at STC where there is already significant density and transit conductivity would clearly create a stronger net work than one where various secondary lines travel to multiple different stations in the area. It just feels like defending the existing “plan” for no good reason. We can go right back to Shepard afterwards!

 

[Northern Light]

The choice of where to terminate a Sheppard subway for the forseeable future is not one to be taken in isolation.

We know that a Neilson LRT is already at 5% design today and will be at 10% at year's end.

Where does it go? We know its northern terminus is Malvern, two logical choices being on to Sheppard then east and south to UTSC; or west on Sheppard to meet Sheppard-McCowan station.
Malvern already is; and will become a much larger population node in the future.

We also need to know how subway storage will be handled for Sheppard. If its a connection to Wilson in the west alone, then it has no material impact on anything in the east.
If, however, the intent were to use the current CP Toronto Yard for that purpose, there's a question how the mainline will connect to said yard. This can be done with a diversion track, but it could also be done by sending the mainline north in/around McCowan and arguably also serve Malvern.

Likewise, the Neilson LRT could be directed south to Ellesemere and meet the BRT proposed there, this would allow it to link up the Centenary campus Scarborough Health Network.

There are many choices which need to be seen in a unified way.

***

One other potential element (not being seriously studied right now); is the potential for a GO line across the 401. Sheppard has too many stops to be a true 'crosstown'. We don't want people to have 90M+ commutes. That doesn't mean it isn't needed, but rather that is primary purpose will be to serve shorter segments, rather than cross-town traffic.

GO Midtown might also fill that role, and those tracks intersect a proposed Sheppard subway.

We can draw any lines we want on a map, they won't all be built in our lifetimes. We need to map out certain musts (storage for Sheppard trains); and what is highly likely to be built between now and any Sheppard subway opening + 10 years.
We want to consider the most cost-effective options, what will serve then current and projected demand, and incorporate future proofing.

Also worth noting is that the TTC has been fairly averse in the past to any branching structure for lines, but, though the expense is considerable, Sheppard might be a worthwhile case. ie. service every 5M serving along the core line, service every 10M to STC and every 10M to Malvern. We can choose to build only one branch initially, but future proof for the other option. (requisite openings and cavities for fly-unders etc.)

A fuller picture of the build-out is required before determining the priority.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I enjoy the video but I would still prefer a connection at Mccowan/Sheppard. Maybe it could turn south to stc from there, but that would likely mean no eastward extension to markham rd, malvern, in the next few decades.

We don't need an eastward extension. STC is enough.

Here is my new video on the Sheppard Line & its extension possibilities! I actually feel really strongly that this is an important project and the best solution for the Sheppard Line, and I've addressed most of the expected criticisms. Enjoy!

Great video, agree with all of it.

Here's the thing. By building a terminal at Sheppard McCowan, you need to justify it. If Bloor Danforth had gone just to STC, you could get away with this. Line 4 connecting at STC is better since a large terminal is already there. But it will probably go to McCowan because that new terminal needs passengers, otherwise, it's a white elephant.

 

[T3G]

We can go right back to Shepard afterwards!

Though, at a great cost, right?

The distance from Sheppard to STC is 1.5 km as the crow flies. A subway extension that doubles back on itself would therefore have to be 3 km at the absolute minimum, and more than that to account for the turning radius of the subway car. All of this to avoid a single stop transfer? I cannot imagine a world where this kind of spending is considered fiscally prudent, unless you were to terminate the service at STC.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

The choice of where to terminate a Sheppard subway for the forseeable future is not one to be taken in isolation.

We know that a Neilson LRT is already at 5% design today and will be at 10% at year's end.

Where does it go? We know its northern terminus is Malvern, two logical choices being on to Sheppard then east and south to UTSC; or west on Sheppard to meet Sheppard-McCowan station.
Malvern already is; and will become a much larger population node in the future.

We also need to know how subway storage will be handled for Sheppard. If its a connection to Wilson in the west alone, then it has no material impact on anything in the east.
If, however, the intent were to use the current CP Toronto Yard for that purpose, there's a question how mainline will connect to said yard. This can be done with a diversion track, but it could also be done by sending the mainline north in/around McCowan and arguably also serve Malvern.

Likewise, the Neilson LRT could be directed south to Ellesemere and meet the BRT proposed there, this would allow it to link up the Centenary campus Scarborough Health Network.

There are many choices which need to be seen in a unified way.

***

One other potential element (not being seriously studied right now); is the potential for a GO line across the 401. Sheppard has too many stops to be a true 'crosstown'. We don't want people have 90M+ commutes. That doesn't mean it is needed, but rather that is primary purpose will be to serve shorter segments, rather than cross-town traffic.

GO Midtown might also fill that role, and those tracks intersect a proposed Sheppard subway.

We can draw any lines we want on a map, they won't all be built in our lifetimes. We need to map out certain musts (storage for Sheppard trains); and what is highly likely to be built between now and any Sheppard subway opening + 10 years.
We want to consider the most cost-effective options, what will serve then current and projected demand, and incorporate future proofing.

Also worth noting is that the TTC has been fairly averse in the past to any branching structure for lines, but, though the expense is considerable, Sheppard might be a worthwhile case. ie. service every 5M serving along the core line, service every 10M to STC and every 10M to Malvern. We can choose to build only one branch initially, but future proof for the other option. (requisite openings and cavities for fly-unders etc.)

A fuller picture of the build-out is required before determining the priority.

Interesting, when will plans go public for the Neilson LRT?

 

[Northern Light]

Interesting, when will plans go public for the Neilson LRT?

If you mean the existence of such plans.......they already are.......if one is paying attention, LOL

Not sure the pols would be thrilled, but good news for them, the media is usually asleep and Jack hasn't found my post on it yet, LOL

One of the planners/engineers on the project is on the City's Design Review panel and made the comment he was working on this in response to his fellow panel members comments about the developer presentation for the Malvern Town Centre plans.

Said plans show an LRT stop.

The Panel's meetings are streamed and available via You Tube, here:

This project (MTC) was the third and final for the day.

The project discussion starts roughly here, about 3hrs 5M in:

The LRT mention is in the panel discussion section following the proponent presentation.

If you mean renders and such, I expect the first of those will come with 10% design so late this year or early next; assuming anyone wants any renders released that is......

 

[Reecemartin]

Though, at a great cost, right?

The distance from Sheppard to STC is 1.5 km as the crow flies. A subway extension that doubles back on itself would therefore have to be 3 km at the absolute minimum, and more than that to account for the turning radius of the subway car. All of this to avoid a single stop transfer? I cannot imagine a world where this kind of spending is considered fiscally prudent, unless you were to terminate the service at STC.

As pointed out in the video going from just south of Agincourt could be above ground if cost is THAT big of an issue, there’s a ton of space and OL has shown it’s politically feasible.

Going slightly further to get a better connection also makes sense. We are spending tens of billions on new subway extensions, light rail, regional rail right now - we aren’t exactly short on capital dollars - why would we skimp on this, which is likely to have a small impact on total project cost?

Choosing a better more expensive alignment is good planning! We have cost issues we desperately need to get under control but, you can’t move the tunnel or guideway once it’s built! I can think of more than a few Toronto projects that would have benefitted a lot from different alignments or small adjustments that could have provided a lot more ridership.

Edit: Also a “small” inconvenience (even a few extra minutes) like a transfer used by a few tens of thousand a day for decades actually creates a really huge cost that adds up! So there are many places all over the world that actually do consider these things…

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

If you mean the existence of such plans.......they already are.......if one is paying attention, LOL

Not sure the pols would be thrilled, but good news for them, the media is usually asleep and Jack hasn't found my post on it yet, LOL

One of the planners/engineers on the project is on the City's Design Review panel and made the comment he was working on this in response to his fellow panel members comments about the developer presentation for the Malvern Town Centre plans.

Said plans show an LRT stop.

The Panel's meetings are streamed and available via You Tube, here:

This project (MTC) was the third and final for the day.

The project discussion starts roughly here, about 3hrs 5M in:

The LRT mention is in the panel discussion section following the proponent presentation.

If you mean renders and such, I expect the first of those will come with 10% design so late this year or early next; assuming anyone wants any renders released that is......

Great find and info, can always count on you Northern. Just hope they don't botch this a - la Eglinton East...

 

[Bureaucromancer]

I've mentioned it before, but I'll take the discussion of an STC diversion vs Sheppard / McCowan terminal as an opportunity to plug my interlining idea again.

In short, I'd propose looping the lines by way of Line 4 swinging onto the rail ROW to reach the North / South Sheppard station, with Agincourt as the primary terminal for Bloor Danforth trains and Scarborough Center as the primary for Sheppard.

 

[T3G]

why would we skimp on this, which is likely to have a small impact on total project cost?

What is your source for this? I am not aware of any conventional knowledge which suggests subway tunnels are in any way cheap. Your suggestion of going above ground would make more sense, but for the issue of where would you run the line? There's already lots of buildings in the way.

There may be a lot of capital dollars available, but there are also a ton of projects and a ton of communities all vying for a slice of the pie. Every dollar spent on a pointless 3 km long extension, for no reason, ostensibly, other than the fact that the modern transit user is so spoiled that they find the thought of transferring in their trip to be an insurmountable obstacle*, is a dollar that other communities won't see.

* And this goes for both suggestions. There are, as far as I can see, only two worthwhile options for this project: either extend Sheppard to STC and end it there, requiring a transfer to LRT or bus to travel into deep Scarberia, or terminate Sheppard at McCowan and require a transfer to the SSE to get to STC. The thought of doubling back 3 km, and continuing further into Scarberia with large monster subway trains, is a shocking waste of money.

Also a “small” inconvenience (even a few extra minutes) like a transfer used by a few tens of thousand a day for decades actually creates a really huge cost that adds up!

Provided the transfer is well served by elevators and doesn't require one to travel very far to the next platform, I fail to see on what basis having a transfer could even constitute an inconvenience. This seems like an exclusively modern North American problem.