Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)

[Amare]

Yup - it all depends on how much the municipality is willing to spend to beautify and maintain the area under the guideway
- whether in the median or the side of the road.

It's too expensive to do that in Toronto though; but yet somehow we'll magically find hundreds of millions extra to tunnel where we dont need to tunnel and dig significantly deeper into the depths of the earth so 50 homes wont feel vibrations from trains.

 

[afransen]

It's too expensive to do that in Toronto though; but yet somehow we'll magically find hundreds of millions extra to tunnel where we dont need to tunnel and dig significantly deeper into the depths of the earth so 50 homes wont feel vibrations from trains.

You see, that's capital, and you can cut ribbons on capital. State of good repair? Bah.

 

[SashaLemon]

Why don't we convert Line 4 from Heavy Rail to Light Metro and extend it massively to basically be GO-ALRT "North", hitting Scarborough, Mississauga, and possibly Oakville.

 

[Northern Light]

Why don't we convert Line 4 from Heavy Rail to Light Metro and extend it massively to basically be GO-ALRT "North", hitting Scarborough, Mississauga, and possibly Oakville.
View attachment 421647

Not happening.

LOL

Read back in the thread for reasons why, this idea has come up before.......

 

[SashaLemon]

Not happening.

LOL

Read back in the thread for reasons why, this idea has come up before.......

I mean its 257 pages, that's quite the read.

 

[Northern Light]

I mean its 257 pages, that's quite the read.

My most recent post on this, which certainly is not exhaustive, is only 2 pages back, LOL

Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)

Perhaps not - but the ridership of even the current section of Line 4 doesn't indicate it should be a subway. So who knows what happens when Metrolinx get's involved in the Line 4 extension, and starts cooking up other unexpected schemes, the like of which even we haven't seriously pondered...

urbantoronto.ca

 

[T3G]

I'm not sure if this is a hot take, but extending our rapid transit into the suburbs is a terrible idea to me. Toronto can't even properly serve itself, and we want to extend our rapid transit into the suburbs? That's something GO can worry about.

 

[SashaLemon]

My most recent post on this, which certainly is not exhaustive, is only 2 pages back, LOL

Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)

Perhaps not - but the ridership of even the current section of Line 4 doesn't indicate it should be a subway. So who knows what happens when Metrolinx get's involved in the Line 4 extension, and starts cooking up other unexpected schemes, the like of which even we haven't seriously pondered...

urbantoronto.ca

Of course its not happening, I'm saying it SHOULD happen. In an ideal world it looks like a pretty good idea, considering you could up-zone a lot of underutilized land. Maybe invite CDPQ-Infra to do it (along with a Midtown Corridor line!) such that the government themselves wouldn't have to pay for it in full.

 

[SashaLemon]

I'm not sure if this is a hot take, but extending our rapid transit into the suburbs is a terrible idea to me. Toronto can't even properly serve itself, and we want to extend our rapid transit into the suburbs? That's something GO can worry about.

The Suburbs are part of Toronto, and I think the idea would be to build transit first and then build high density development around it. That is what they do in places like Singapore and Hong Kong. The Montreal REM is playing this exact card as well.

 

[Northern Light]

Of course its not happening, I'm saying it SHOULD happen. In an ideal world it looks like a pretty good idea, considering you could up-zone a lot of underutilized land. Maybe invite CDPQ-Infra to do it (along with a Midtown Corridor line!) such that the government themselves wouldn't have to pay for it in full.

I'll have to disagree.

Conversion means closing the existing subway for an extended period of time; which is itself a lot of $$$ in replacement buses.

It also instantly means the interchange to line 1 (for the trains) is no longer usable and a new yard must be built as well.

It would also limit capacity and interoperability, and I don't really see a material upside.

Keep in mind, any westerly extension is on a narrower piece of Sheppard initially and any easterly extension must remain underground until east of Consumers Road.

***

I don't see any obviously advantages; whatever costs savings one gets from cheaper construction further out are eaten up by the cost of the conversion.

At the same time, the Sheppard extension is coming regardless.

So I just don't see much of an upside.

Nor do I see it as politically feasible.

 

[SashaLemon]

I'll have to disagree.

Conversion means closing the existing subway for an extended period of time; which is itself a lot of $$$ in replacement buses.

It also instantly means the interchange to line 1 (for the trains) is no longer usable and a new yard must be built as well.

It would also limit capacity and interoperability, and I don't really see a material upside.

Keep in mind, any westerly extension is on a narrower piece of Sheppard initially and any easterly extension must remain underground until east of Consumers Road.

***

I don't see any obviously advantages; whatever costs savings one gets from cheaper construction further out are eaten up by the cost of the conversion.

At the same time, the Sheppard extension is coming regardless.

So I just don't see much of an upside.

Nor do I see it as politically feasible.

I think Line 4 will be the last new heavy rail line. If we ever build another new line (that is not LRT), its probably gonna be a light metro like the Ontario Line. Interoperability will come with more and more lines like this. Would you ever envision Line 4 in it's current state extending along this ALRT route?

Even if this idea does not happen (which let me stress again, I am well aware that it won't), I think the light metro tech is the way to go in order to up-zone underutilized lands in the suburbs to bring hundreds of thousands of new homes to the city and the region. I wonder if/when CDPQ Infra will look somewhere other then Montreal for their next project. (Since the REM de l'Est has been stupidly canceled.) Come to Toronto says I, build a line from the Scarborough Convention Centre to the Ontario Science Centre, to Summerhill Station, Dupont Station, then head all the way to Mississauga City Centre. Possibly you could build a spur line down to New Toronto. If you look along this route, you will see that it is RIPE for Transit Oriented Development. This is exactly what is happening with the stations for the REM, and CDPQ Infra is incentivized to develop because they make money in the TOD areas around the stations.

 

[Northern Light]

I think Line 4 will be the last new heavy rail line. If we ever build another new line (that is not LRT), its probably gonna be a light metro like the Ontario Line. Interoperability will come with more and more lines like this. Would you ever envision Line 4 in it's current state extending along this ALRT route?

I believe the final configuration of Line 4 is most likely to be Sheppard West Station on Line 1 to McCowan Station on the SSE.

I find it highly improbable it will extend beyond either point; though it is not inconceivable it could make a veer out to provide a station in Malvern.

I wonder if/when CDPQ Infra will look somewhere other then Montreal for their next project. (Since the REM de l'Est has been stupidly canceled.)

I am told CDPQ is considering exiting this type of build entirely. REM de l'est is only a part of the issue. Nothing has been decided yet, and CDPQ will doubtless do an extensive post-mortem once the currently under construction services are in operation.

But I can say there is much unhappiness from every player.

Things that seem too good to be true, often are.........

Come to Toronto says I, build a line from the Scarborough Convention Centre to the Ontario Science Centre, to Summerhill Station, Dupont Station, then head all the way to Mississauga City Centre.

There will be a line in that corridor, one day, it will be a GO Line.

The Mid-town corridor is owned by CP Rail the complications of building elevated over their tracks are almost certainly too difficult to conquer.

The clearance heights would almost certainly have to allow for double-stack freight..............not happening.

Besides, there is room along the majority of the corridor for a dedicated set of tracks for GO, though some expropriation, retaining walls and widened bridges will be required; and that would be much cheaper than unnecessary elevation.

That said, this investment will not come soon, its not even on the medium term horizon. (15 years).

Beyond current 'Go Expansion'; the priorities are 2Way-All Day on the Milton portion of the corridor with a near-term goal of 30M frequencies, along with the extension to Bomanville and towards Niagara, then adding Cambridge into the network in one fashion or another is on the list after that.

GO Midtown will follow; though its one of two cross-town routes being looked at and only one will go forward in the next 20 years or so.

 

[SashaLemon]

I believe the final configuration of Line 4 is most likely to be Sheppard West Station on Line 1 to McCowan Station on the SSE.

I find it highly improbable it will extend beyond either point; though it is not inconceivable it could make a veer out to provide a station in Malvern.



I am told CDPQ is considering exiting this type of build entirely. REM de l'est is only a part of the issue. Nothing has been decided yet, and CDPQ doubtless do an extensive post-mortem once the currently under construction services are in operation.

But I can say there is much unhappiness from every player.

Things that seem too good to be true, often are.........



There will be a line in that corridor, one day, it will be a GO Line.

The Mid-town corridor is owned by CP Rail the complications of building elevated over their tracks are almost certainly too difficult to conquer.

The clearance heights would almost certainly have to allow for double-stack freight..............not happening. There is room along the majority of the corridor for a dedicated set of tracks for GO, though some expropriation, retaining walls and widened bridges will be required.

That said, this investment will not come soon, its not even on the medium term horizon. (15 years).

Beyond current 'Go Expansion'; the priorities are 2Way-All Day on the Milton portion of the corridor with a near-term goal of 30M frequencies, along with the extension to Bomanville and towards Niagara, then adding Cambridge into the network in one fashion or another is on the list after that.

GO Midtown will follow; though its one of two cross-town routes being looked at and only one will go forward in the next 20 years or so.

There's room for two GO tracks but not two light metro tracks? You could also do it at-grade like the Ontario Line will be, sharing an alignment with GO. I keep hearing arguments that the GO Corridor line would be used to have services bypassing downtown, but how much demand for that even is there? I see more potential for TOD.
Where is this other cross-town route that is being studied for GO? I would like to look at that. Maybe GO could use that option and a light metro could be situated here. (Again though, I would like to look at this other route.)

 

[Northern Light]

There's room for two GO tracks but not two light metro tracks?

You could do either, but you wouldn't do both. Either way you wouldn't go elevated. But Light Metro operating there would require complete separation from CP's infra; and its their corridor, their mainline in fact, so I see it as highly improbable.

Keep in mind, as GO expansion rolls out, we're talking about 2-way, all-day service and near-Metro frequencies.

Whether or not that would be justified on the mid-town corridor given the proximity of both Line 2 and Line 5 is an open question, but one best reserved to another day.

We're simply not close to doing anything here.

Where is this other cross-town route that is being studied for GO? I would like to look at that. Maybe GO could use that option and a light metro could be situated here. (Again though, I would like to look at this other route.)

View attachment 421661

The 407 ROW is the other corridor being examined; though it might not be strictly adhered to in all locations.

When I say examined, it really isn't getting any detailed thought at all right now (last I heard) ; its just a high-level idea being tossed around.

Edit to add: As fantasies go, I frankly prefer something in the 401 corridor as it intersects multiple current and future nodes, including UTSC, Centennial, SCC, Vic Park/Consumers, North York General etc, NYCC, Yorkdale, and Pearson. But the MTO is not yet ready to entertain such a notion.

 

[SashaLemon]

You could do either, but you wouldn't do both. Either way you wouldn't go elevated. But Light Metro operating there would require complete separation from CP's infra; and its there corridor, their mainline in fact, so I see it as highly improbable.

Keep in mind, as GO expansion rolls out, we're talking about 2-way, all-day service and near-Metro frequencies.

Whether or not that would be justified on the mid-town corridor given the proximity of both Line 2 and Line 5 is an open question, but one best reserved to another day.

We're simply not close to doing anything here.



The 407 ROW is the other corridor being examined; though it might not be strictly adhered to in all locations.

When I say examined, it really isn't getting any detailed thought at all right now (last I heard) ; its just a high-level idea being tossed around.

Granted, I COULD see a future where the midtown corridor is like, a super quality mainline S-Bahn type thing (DB, you better listen!), and that would be good enough to spur massive development in the lands that I am describing. This might be the more reasonable option. I do wonder however what that would mean for the long distance trains. Are we gonna have full electrification or diesel trains (or even bi-modes that are not EMUs, lacking their starting and stopping ability) clogging up this hypothetically developed section. Maybe some sort of weird hybrid DEMU bi-mode trains. Sounds expensive. Less then full electrification though.
Maybe I am over thinking things.

EDIT: Im sure the services that WOULD run from one GO line terminus to another without going downtown would be niche enough that you might just run them with some DEMUs like the kind on Line 2 on the O-Train (which is sort of a Mainline track.) instead of the normal GO trains. They would be able to stop and get going not too much slower then the electric trains would, and would keep the core services running smoothly. (I don't know then if a DEMU with a bi-mode pantograph option is even necessary at all in that case.)