Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)

[Northern Light]

airports are smaller passenger drivers than you may think, particularly for local transit lines like the Finch West LRT.

Obviously it wouldn't be completely useless, but it would cost billions to extend, would serve nothing but a near-abandoned mall, casino, and the airport with basically no additional walk-on traffic beyond those three, and would be fairly winding of a route without being particularly fast, depending on exact alignment, and would only really be useful for those who live directly along the line. Those living south of the line will be better off taking the Eglinton Crosstown which will be far faster, and those who live north will be better off taking Highway 407 bus service (i.e. coming from VMC). It's basically useless for more regional passenger traffic from the airport, which is most of the airport traffic.

Right, but for clarity, I'm thinking of employee traffic as opposed to passenger traffic. Though I certainly concur that it only works if an alignment can be reasonably direct and result in a reasonable commute. I would also prioritize getting the Crosstown into the airport ahead of Finch. Though I certainly want any new transit terminal(s) at the airport to be future proofed for Finch.

Eglinton East is a good route and will be busy, but it doesn't save any travel time over existing bus service and those billions would be better invested in dedicated bus lanes throughout Scarborough IMO, or a Sheppard Subway extension to UTSC.

I agree, on an as-designed basis. I've put in my suggestions for how I think the proposal might be made more useful/attractive, but for the time being, I would consider it a low priority given the low benefit it would provide.

 

[nfitz]

Finch West to the airport is pretty useless tbh, as is Eglinton East.. Waterfront does need to be the first priority though, yes.

Eglinton East had decent passenger forecasts. University of Toronto Scarborough alone has over 14,000 students, and is very transit dependent.

Extending Finch West to the new GO station is a no-brainer - presumably with a couple of intermediary stops in between for the racetrack and Woodbine Mall. And would provide good connections to the airport. It's a huge employment node - about 50,000 people.

 

[kEiThZ]

You'd have a Subway line under a street that features the backyards of residential homes facing it? Wow,

Good opportunity to upzone.

 

[11th]

Any extension of Sheppard eastwards will require some level of stabling/train maintenance facilities, so a westward extension would be pretty useful with a connection to Wilson Yard. Would free up Davisville Yard for development, too.

But yes, this should not be the City's #1 ask for transit dollars - Eglinton East, Finch West LRT to the Airport and a variety of Waterfront streetcar extensions first please!

Current QP isn't interested in building street level rails. If they are in a vote buying mood by funding any metro routes (higher price tag items which the city will never be able to afford on its own) I'd say milk them dry while we can.

 

[steviej1]

Do you guys think that the LRT Plan is dead once and for all? Or is there a chance that it might be revived?

 

[Bureaucromancer]

Do you guys think that the LRT Plan is dead once and for all? Or is there a chance that it might be revived?

Depends what you mean.

I think a subway is pretty much established as the priority for connecting to BD, but as long as Eglinton East to Malvern is a possibility some amount of (additional) rail on the eastern part of Shepard is very much plausible.

 

[innsertnamehere]

I would say that the LRT from Don Mills to McCowan is generally dead, yes. Nobody is really pursuing it anymore.

Does that change if the subway isn't locked in by 2026 and a new provincial government comes in? perhaps, but I don't see any major backers of the LRT at this point.

 

[Sunnyside]

Do you guys think that the LRT Plan is dead once and for all? Or is there a chance that it might be revived?

I don’t think there’s the appetite for any more LRT to replace what should be subways (especially ones politicians and the public all KNOW should be subways). It seems the best use case for LRTs as we are building them is to replace buses to improve capacity, reliability and possibly speed. At worst, I could see a future government kaiboshing the Ontario Line north and sending it east at sheppard and don mills as the “sheppard line extension” but that’s really a stretch. I can’t see sheppard not being extended east in a tunnel, either as TTC subway or light metro someday.

 

[nfitz]

I don’t think there’s the appetite for any more LRT to replace what should be subways (especially ones politicians and the public all KNOW should be subways).

Perhaps not - but the ridership of even the current section of Line 4 doesn't indicate it should be a subway. So who knows what happens when Metrolinx get's involved in the Line 4 extension, and starts cooking up other unexpected schemes, the like of which even we haven't seriously pondered.

 

[ARG1]

Perhaps not - but the ridership of even the current section of Line 4 doesn't indicate it should be a subway. So who knows what happens when Metrolinx get's involved in the Line 4 extension, and starts cooking up other unexpected schemes, the like of which even we haven't seriously pondered.

I think it's important to remember that Line 4 actually has extremely good ridership when we consider how short it is. In terms of ridership per km, it's stronger than most metro lines in the US.

 

[nfitz]

I think it's important to remember that Line 4 actually has extremely good ridership when we consider how short it is. In terms of ridership per km, it's stronger than most metro lines in the US.

Yes it does - but the forecast for the additional riders on the extension east of Victoria Park was dreadful. Had it been LRT it would have been extended significantly now; and would have had a stop in Willowdale - though I'd think the piece from west of Don Mills Road to east of Victoria would have to be elevated.

Anyhow - all in the past now. Staying on Sheppard to McCowan (and interchanging with Line 2) will likely give it better ridership than diving south at Agincourt. Might even pick up better reverse commuting with some going to Line 2 to go south. I've always thought Victoria Park to Dufferin would work well. It would be interesting to see what the additional incremental ridership would be running to McCowan.

 

[11th]

Yes it does - but the forecast for the additional riders on the extension east of Victoria Park was dreadful. Had it been LRT it would have been extended significantly now; and would have had a stop in Willowdale - though I'd think the piece from west of Don Mills Road to east of Victoria would have to be elevated.

Anyhow - all in the past now. Staying on Sheppard to McCowan (and interchanging with Line 2) will likely give it better ridership than diving south at Agincourt. Might even pick up better reverse commuting with some going to Line 2 to go south. I've always thought Victoria Park to Dufferin would work well. It would be interesting to see what the additional incremental ridership would be running to McCowan.

Interchange with Stouffville line will be even more useful. Eastern Markham no longer has to rely solely on Highway 7 to get to Yonge.
If/when OL is extended to Sheppard, you can also expect most will do the Stouffville>Sheppard>OL route rather than Stouffville>Eglinton>OL

 

[Bureaucromancer]

Ugh. I think I’m going to regret saying this, but the BD/Shepard loop has been growing on me. If the plan remains to stay on Shepard, through routing Shepard trains south (to STC) using the slots opened by BD short turns at Kennedy solves a lot of the complaints about connectivity lost by not going south.

 

[ARG1]

Ugh. I think I’m going to regret saying this, but the BD/Shepard loop has been growing on me. If the plan remains to stay on Shepard, through routing Shepard trains south (to STC) using the slots opened by BD short turns at Kennedy solves a lot of the complaints about connectivity lost by not going south.

Unfortunately Sheppard/McCowan station will be north of Sheppard, so having a full loop that allows for through running would be difficult. The only way I see it happening is if maybe the Sheppard Line station is far west enough that through running trains can use that station itself, meanwhile Line 2 platforms are only used for terminating Line 2 trains. This is however still a pretty big stretch.

 

[Bureaucromancer]

Unfortunately Sheppard/McCowan station will be north of Sheppard, so having a full loop that allows for through running would be difficult. The only way I see it happening is if maybe the Sheppard Line station is far west enough that through running trains can use that station itself, meanwhile Line 2 platforms are only used for terminating Line 2 trains. This is however still a pretty big stretch.

Not too much of a stretch if the Shepard extension pulls off Shepard onto the CP ROW. Which I think might happen anyway given the benefit a connection would have even if not through routed.