Sharon Yetman's Subway Safety Plan (Better barrier for subways 'an obsession')

[CDL.TO]

These barriers are all pointless until the TTC can have automated train control. Until then we can't have any barriers as drivers would find it difficult to stop the train in the exact position to match the barrier openings.

1. Beijing has done it without ATC. It just takes a few weeks of practice.

The Jubillee Line in London, one line that a lot of people point at for platform screen doors, does not have ATC (or at least didn't until this year).

Amazing, eh?

It definitely slows down operation as the diver must pull into the station slower in order to stop in the right spot (they have about a one foot margin of error).

 

[nfitz]

These doors are exactly what you see at your local retail store.

Which also means it will be subject to frequent breakdowns. TTC already uses such doors at station entrances, and they are frequently out-of-service, being left open all the time.

You also don't seem to have dealt with the real danger of people getting trapped in the doors (surely they have to be more like elevator doors with sensors detecting a blockage), or between closed doors and a train, which would kill the user.

And to properly design and manufacture for all these issues, is the reason why the costs are significantly more than you have estimated.

And the safety issues are why the practice of engineering in this province is licensed, and restricted to those who are properly trained. Conceptual plans are fine ... but you'd never get an engineer to seal the design drawings based on your current concept.

 

[nfitz]

The Jubillee Line in London, one line that a lot of people point at for platform screen doors, does not have ATC (or at least didn't until this year).

True, but to be fair, after TFL installed these in 1999, they haven't installed anymore (AFAIK), and have been looking at ATC.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

In answer to Woodbridge Heights,
You can old episodes of Dragons Den on their website
In the case of the product choice of automatic glass doors. These doors are exactly what you see at your local retail store. They cost out about $8,900. dollars each installed. TTC would just have to fill in the header along the top for the beam. The barrier wall is just one continuous set of automatic glass doors end to end. Hurricane rated doors they use in Florida only cost an exter $300 dollars per door, if these are need. Such doors meet all fire code regulations. Just because "platform screen doors" are a specialty item, even though they are not, they are extremely expensive and are over rated, and come with alot of integration with the train doors, themselves, and the train.

You suggest taking off the shelf grocery store sliding doors and installing them on the platforms? Why no revolving doors as well. Your plan is $0.5 million, that makes ~55 doors @ $9000 per door, did I get my math right? Is that 55 doors per station or over the total system?

 

[CDL.TO]

Sharon,

A picture is worth a thousand words. How about some drawings rather than trying to explain your concept?

 

[DavidH]

In answering Woodbridge Heights,

There are 48 exit train doors, add 2 moer exits at platform end. Thats 50 doors per side of a station.

Is this for Toronto? If so, there are 24 exit doors per train (4 per car x 6 cars).

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Each of these cost about $2,500 installed, Now we are talking about $250,000 per station for platform safety, and efficiency.
Worse case senerio someone brings a Knife with them, which is illegal, they cut the screen, hoping nobody notices, and then they attempt to time there jump through this big long cut they would have had to make. I sure the folks aroung would have apprehended the person from doing all of the above.

The key is death should not be that easy.

You're saying that the little swiss army knife that I carry on my key chain is illegal? A kitchen knife is illegal? I'm sure there are members of the Sikh community that would love to have a chat with you about the "legality" of knives.

You are glossing over some very serious questions without a resonable response, don't you see that?

 

[DavidH]

You're saying that the little swiss army knife that I carry on my key chain is illegal? A kitchen knife is illegal? I'm sure there are members of the Sikh community that would love to have a chat with you about the "legality" of knives.

Indeed. Scratchiti is a serious problem on the TTC. One can only imagine the joy that some of these people would take in slashing screens.

 

[nfitz]

Understand this piece, if you don't mind. Did you know that someone has actually died with traditional platform screen doors?

I bet you didn't know that.

??? Of course I know that ... I posted exactly that 2 pages ago - http://www.urbantoronto.ca/showpost.php?p=334859 - post 26.

Can you imagine how many more people would be killed if the doors were not properly engineered?

How much does a typical elevator door cost? Surely that is more comparable in price and safety.

 

[Asterix]

In ansering Asterix,

On the automated door frequency. How often do Walmart doors open and close. It is the same kind of doors that I am suggesting.

On the math question of 20 seconds.

if you save 20 seconds on your first 6 am train coming from the east, from the west, from the north, and the other north line,

Then collectively, over 3 hours of rush in the morning and 3 hours of rush hours in the evening, together each line is able to commute 10.46 more trains from each route.

Thats an extra 11 (round off) trains that can come into Toronto from Kennedy Station and than 11 loads of passengers going home, becuase dwell time savings in during both rush hours.

4 lines of trains times 11 extra trains in and now they go home at the end of the day, there is your 88 extra train loads of passengers.

Each train load carries about 1,500 people squished together, times 88 train loads, times, 5 days a week, times 52 weeks in the years.

Folks, that adds up to 34,320,000 automobile trips that got to leave their cars home because there was newly found space for them to fit on the existing subway system, without even putting a shovel into the ground, without spending billions on a new subway line.

Just off the top of my head, several issues with that final 88 train loads of passengers figure.

- Maybe in the future subway demand will be at 100+% in each direction in and out of downtown for an entire 3 hour rush hour, but it certainly isn't now.

- Current train capacities are 1,000 normal operation, 1,200 crush capacity, both well off 1,500. Unless your plan comes with an idea to reduce the average size of passengers.

- How does saving 20 seconds of dwell time per train equate to 11 trains for a three hour period? I thought peak subway headways are about 3 minutes (180 seconds). That's a total of 60 trains each way over 3 hours. 60 trains x 20 seconds = 1,200 seconds 'saved'. 1,200/180 = 6.7 trains. (Which assumes that trains heading non-peak direction are overloaded to an extant that they are forced to dwell longer than ideal.)

- Most people have at least 2 weeks of holidays a year (plus statutories), so 52 weeks of 5 day work week calculations might be a little much.

My scepticism of your plan derives from the reasoning that if you have these kinds of errors or misinterpretations in basic analysis, then how effectively have you thought through the more complex aspects of trying to manage crowds through corrals (let alone ensure near 100% operability of your door systems).

You previously said that you don't feel people give way adequately to those trying to exit trains, but then you later say that you have faith in human nature to comply with your passenger routing plans. Isn't that a little contradictory?

 

[nfitz]

While something needs to be done for many reasons (preventing suicides, reducing trauma to drivers, delays in subways, track fires), I'm not sold on the time saving. Outside of rush-hour the doors are often only open for a few seconds, sometimes the chime for closing occurs while the door is still opening.

It's only under busy conditons that there is potential for saving. How has this been tested? I'd think with 50-100 people, and some rope, one could experimentally establish what time savings were possible.

As for safety responsibility. It's a bit of a mystery ... the coroner's inquest after the Russell Hill accident recommended that the Railway Act be applied to subway operations which would trigger appropriate safety board responsibility; but I don't think this ever happened. And frankly it's a mystery to me, how the current platforms at Union, Yonge, St. George, and Bay are allowed to operate with such narrow platforms ... I've always thought that was an accident waiting to happen.

 

[Asterix]

Asking them to stand back from the train doors. Does not worlk.
Lines alone on the floor, is not enough.

As someone else has already posted, I don't believe this is as big a problem as you make it out to be. Yes, there are people who do crowd the door and slow things down, but often it is because there simply is nowhere else to stand given the number of people.

The better safety for all ( particularily if there was a bomb threat , terrriosim, fire etc. on the train and evacuation is done none at the fastest possible manner.

Safety first, not blue lights, and body bags, as perhaps most do not know are stocked up under all platforms.

Now this seems to be bordering a bit on the paranoid. Are you suggesting that in the event of terrorism or fire on a train requiring evacuation that there might be an issue with separating those trying to de-train from those trying to board?

I'd also be curious for a cite to your assertion of body bags being stocked up under all platforms. It seems strange to me that it would be more efficient to store literally dozens of them throughout the subway system (losing a certain percentage to decay, damage, pollution) than have them with the EMS or coroner or whoever usually are the ones to pick up the pieces from accidents, murders or other deaths in the city.

 

[jn_12]

My interpretation of your proposal from last night's show is that you simply want a "keep to the right system" with some barriers installed. However, if anything, it might be less efficient than our current system whereby people allow everyone to leave the train first and then enter. It would work fine for an unpacked train with only a few people exiting and entering, but at full capacity you'd need every person that entered the train to immediately fill the space of a person that left. In this way it could potentially be harder for people to fit on the train and perhaps more dangerous as we all come in different shapes and sizes and you'd be entirely dependent on the flow of people within the car. Plus, you're looking at a system where once on the train everyone would need to move immediately to their right, and any attempts to go left would get in the way of the "outgoing" line. I don't buy that there are any significant problems with loading and unloading of passengers. Rarely do trains sit at a station for 20 seconds, nevermind expecting to cut that much time at rest.

If all you were doing was proposing barriers that'd be fine and everyone here would be on board (cost withstanding), but this desire to manage passenger flows is far to rigid to work with every person being a variable. So I'm out. (sorry couldn't resist)

 

[Swarley]

I don't see how you can simply contrast the time between "inhibited" and "uninhibited" egress from a train and say that your proposal will reduce dwell time by that much for each train. If you have separate doors for loading and unloading then you'll just get a massive crowd of people inside the train trying to get out through two doors, people jostling and pushing more, etc.
Seems like this is really a separate concept from your platform doors idea... you seem to be confusing the issue with this.

PS Maybe your cause would be helped by posting photos of your prototypes.

 

[Dolemite]

so the idea is to put 'sliding doors' along the entire length of the platform. Therefore, the train would not have to line up with the doors? Ok, i'm still having difficulty visualizing this 'system'. Because, when a pair of sliding doors
open, the door leaf slides behind on each side. In effect, to put sliding doors beside each other, there needs to be full height glazed partition (tempered and laminated $$$) between the doors so that they can open fully. What happens when the train doors line up with glazed partition? That would make it a tad difficult to get on the train, but hey, maybe it would be easier to understand with a drawing........