Seattle is Dying

[Admiral Beez]

Seattle does get cold.

So does Toronto, but we seem to have the second highest street population after Vancouver. I’m not sure people travel to where it’s warmer, but instead to where the services are. As for Seattle, if you’re mentally ill, addicted and homeless in, say Minneapolis, how do you get to Seattle?

 

[Johnny Au]

Yes, it does.

But its broadly comparable with Vancouver; and considerably warmer in winter than a host of mid-west cities.

It also not brutally hot in summer as some places in the deep south can be.

Palm trees can survive unprotected in Seattle, Victoria, and Vancouver.

Unprotected palm trees along Vancouver's English Bay

The same cannot be said about Toronto; palm trees grown in Toronto have to be protected during the winter.

 

[TrickyRicky]

Northern light, your right to call me out on broad generalizations I’m good with that; However, I was not the one who pushed the discussion to be personal.

I described my personal experience and made an insensitive generalization based on insufficient facts. Admiral, countered that he had been to fairly orderly meetings, a fact based counterpoint. I probably pressed your button because my generalization mirrored right-wing talking points and it set you off. Hold me to a higher standard sure; however, remember that in political discussions on this forum there are endless pages of cheap-shot generalizations pushing a narrow left urban consensus.

On that topic, my political opinion is actually laissez-faire left (roughly believing in government solutions but seeing government in the roll largely of manager not do-er). My opinion is only right-of-centre and to be construed as right-of-centre relative to a minority urban-leftish view.

That said, I do find myself drifting more “right” as I age because my observable experience of people is increasingly incongruous with theoretical underpinnings of government-backed solutions and left-wing theory.

Bringing it back to this thread topic relevant questions beg what is compassionate? And what do government and charity solutions accomplish? We see homeless encampments and people say we need more funding for shelter spaces and that it’s compassionate to leave them undisturbed. The homeless I talk to have opinions as diverse as the general population. Many of them are NOT on the street for lack of shelter spaces. They don’t want to live in a shelter, some because they don’t like the quality of the shelter experience , some because they don’t want to period. We could create 100k Luxurious spaces and there would still be homeless encampments. This is about more than money

 

[Northern Light]

Bringing it back to this thread topic relevant questions beg what is compassionate? And what do government and charity solutions accomplish? We see homeless encampments and people say we need more funding for shelter spaces and that it’s compassionate to leave them undisturbed. The homeless I talk to have opinions as diverse as the general population. Many of them are NOT on the street for lack of shelter spaces. They don’t want to live in a shelter, some because they don’t like the quality of the shelter experience , some because they don’t want to period. We could create 100k Luxurious spaces and there would still be homeless encampments. This is about more than money

I think this is entirely accurate.

There is a crisis, due to the scale of the problem, which is out of line w/historic norms.
Its quite right to say that some people will always be homeless, at least temporarily irrespective of how generous any assistance or outreach may be.
But that number ought to be far fewer than it is currently.

The is a problem with people declining shelter space exists in more normal times......for reasons I'll discuss below..........but is obviously amplified in the midst of our pandemic, where people being in close quarters is considered to be a health risk.

That the problem exists is a reflection of the normal problem in which we have a poorly designed shelter system that affords people every reason to decline its help if they feel they can; and one which is normally close to capacity and on which we over rely.

Shelter are and were always meant to be a stop-gap solution while we get someone back on their feet; and/or into a supportive situation (fully or partially institutional)
We now have upwards of 10,000 people reliant shelters/the street and that is not tenable.

Self-evidently, through a variety of actions, we need both more affordable housing; and better income/income supports for those in entry-level or low-wage jobs, such that they can afford housing.
That addresses one portion of the problem, but by no means the entirety.

We clearly need far more robust mental healthcare; and in particular far better and more quickly accessible addiction treatment programs, including those of an in-patient variety.

Beyond that, to the extent that 'shelters' will always be a portion of the solution; we need better shelters.

I have long-favoured the single-room-occupancy model.

Small spaces, single-bed, but your own room and toilet/sink.

The rationale is a simple one.

It affords greater security (shelters are known to have inordinate issues w/violence and theft) .
It affords privacy. It allows people to sleep in or sleep when they wish.
It can provide someone a fixed address of sorts, for purposes of ID and communication, if they are assigned a fixed room.

People decline shelters for reasons of safety, cleanliness, and freedom (to come and go as one pleases etc.)

Lets remove those reasons, so that people will be more likely to accept offers of help.

What to do with those who refuse said help is a different conversation; and I would suppose one that would vary based on how those people are coping, where they are sleeping, and whether pose a danger to others.

But that's not really the problem as it stands; its one of a mediocre and inadequate offer of help; both on the housing side; and on the mental health side (where wait times for addiction treatment can run into the many months) .

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

It's an hour-long video - I watched the first 10 minutes and it seemed to list all the problems afflicting Seattle with regards to homelessness and property theft. Does it offer solutions at any point?

Yes, the latter half of the video describes various means of addressing the drug crisis that is an adjacent issue to homelessness and crime in Seattle.

 

[Admiral Beez]

New vid.

I worry that this is the future that awaits Toronto, where police and city government ignore homelessness, the mentally ill, addicts and the incremental petty crimes and public nuisances.

 

[Undead]

I think we need to embrace what used to be moderate approaches from both sides of the left/wing divide to avoid this fate.

To wit, inequality has gotten to a point where ordinary people can no longer get a foothold in the property market even if they do everything right. Understandably, this makes them angry and susceptible to populism. Addressing this would be a more "left wing" style concern/solution.

On the other hand, our authorities often seem reluctant to enforce law and order. In fact, they even side with radical progressive politics which legitimizes violence, destruction and chaos. Addressing this would be a more "right wing" style concern/solution.

Edit to add: many schools, universities and media outlets are pumping dangerous levels of activism into the system and feeding into the first point mentioned above. This also needs to be addressed and would fall under the law and order solution.

 

[Northern Light]

I think we need to embrace what used to be moderate approaches from both sides of the left/wing divide to avoid this fate.

To wit, inequality has gotten to a point where ordinary people can no longer get a foothold in the property market even if they do everything right. Understandably, this makes them angry and susceptible to populism. Addressing this would be a more "left wing" style concern/solution.

On the other hand, our authorities often seem reluctant to enforce law and order. In fact, they even side with radical progressive politics which legitimizes violence, destruction and chaos. Addressing this would be a more "right wing" style concern/solution.

Edit to add: many schools, universities and media outlets are pumping dangerous levels of activism into the system and feeding into the first point mentioned above. This also needs to be addressed and would fall under the law and order solution.

It is possible to be empathetic, kind, and supportive; but also firm.

But its worth pointing out, that we really haven't had what one might call an extreme left/socialist solution, since the post WWII era when vast amounts of public housing and subsidized private rental were built to house returning veterans.

Those solutions remained in effect for about 2 decades and then declined precipitously from the mid 60s to late 70s.

While many people who might arguably be on the extreme left are often defenders of encampments, they could, quite curiously be said to be on extreme right as the same time; as this is almost a Libertarian approach, with a level of indifference of the real suffering of many in those encampments, as well as the less serious, but tangible inconvenience to area residents.

What is required is actually fund the requisite housing, implement policies that encourage the private sector to do more of the same; address low-wages and historically low social assistance payments relative to cost of living...........AND, also be prepared to mandate a certain amount of institutional care for those unwilling or unable to otherwise live sociably and safely in society.

 

[Jonny5]

If you want examples of places in Canada that are actually dying with these problems you can find them, but they aren't here. They are the small cities out west. It is quite an issue there, and something that continues to mostly fly under the radar of the national media. Try Prince George BC, Lethbridge AB, North Battleford SK, or Thompson MB and you will find real endemic violent crime. Downtown East, or Seattle for that matter are no comparison to those cities. They have violent crime rates five to ten times that of big cities like Toronto, Vancouver, and Montreal. The reasons are long and somewhat complicated; systemic poverty and access to hard drugs is, of course, a large part of the explanation though certainly not all of it. I also note that all local policing in these places is done by the RCMP, and I have greatly reduced my confidence in their abilities over the years, particularly after the Nova Scotia incident a year ago.

 

[Northern Light]

If you want examples of places in Canada that are actually dying with these problems you can find them, but they aren't here. They are the small cities out west. It is quite an issue there, and something that continues to mostly fly under the radar of the national media. Try Price George BC, Lethbridge AB, North Battleford SK, or Thompson MB and you will find real endemic violent crime. Downtown East, or Seattle for that matter are no comparison to those cities. They have violent crime rates five to ten times that of big cities like Toronto, Vancouver, and Montreal. The reasons are long and somewhat complicated; systemic poverty and access to hard drugs is, of course, a large part of the explanation though certainly not all of it. I also note that all local policing in these places is done by the RCMP, and I have greatly reduced my confidence in their abilities over the years, particularly after the Nova Scotia incident a year ago.

Prince George, or Thompson would not have totally surprised me, more remote areas often have these issues; (not always, but its not uncommon).........

But I have to say, Lethbridge caught me off guard.

Its a proverbial college town, with a somewhat larger population {as small town Alberta goes).......and votes NDP.......

Not exactly.........what I expected.

More so when I read this:


LETHBRIDGE, AB – Statistics Canada has given Lethbridge an unfortunate distinction – having the highest Crime Severity Index (CSI) in the country.

It measures both the volume and seriousness of crimes reported to police to arrive at an overall score.

Out of Canada’s 35 largest census metropolitan areas (CMA), Lethbridge had the highest CSI at 141.8 in 2019, an increase of two per cent from 2018. The CMA for Lethbridge also includes Coaldale and Picture Butte.

The next-highest was Winnipeg with a score of 131.7.

From: https://lethbridgenewsnow.com/2020/10/30/lethbridge-has-canadas-highest-crime-severity-index/

 

[Admiral Beez]

If you want examples of places in Canada that are actually dying with these problems you can find them, but they aren't here. They are the small cities out west.

It’s a good point and one of the reasons I often prefer the harshest winter and its Etch-A-Sketch shaking reset of the streets. North America’s warmer and Pacific coast cities seem to suffer the most.

 

[Jonny5]

Prince George, or Thompson would not have totally surprised me, more remote areas often have these issues; (not always, but its not uncommon).........

But I have to say, Lethbridge caught me off guard.

Its a proverbial college town, with a somewhat larger population {as small town Alberta goes).......and votes NDP.......

Not exactly.........what I expected.

More so when I read this:


LETHBRIDGE, AB – Statistics Canada has given Lethbridge an unfortunate distinction – having the highest Crime Severity Index (CSI) in the country.

It measures both the volume and seriousness of crimes reported to police to arrive at an overall score.

Out of Canada’s 35 largest census metropolitan areas (CMA), Lethbridge had the highest CSI at 141.8 in 2019, an increase of two per cent from 2018. The CMA for Lethbridge also includes Coaldale and Picture Butte.

The next-highest was Winnipeg with a score of 131.7.

From: https://lethbridgenewsnow.com/2020/10/30/lethbridge-has-canadas-highest-crime-severity-index/

Even Saskatoon is facing a lot of these problems now. Meth and Fentanyl is just everywhere in the Prairies.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Even Saskatoon is facing a lot of these problems now. Meth and Fentanyl is just everywhere in the Prairies.

I find it amazing how Canada's small towns are chockablock of opioids. I remember when Tori Stafford was kidnapped and murdered in Woodstock, ON that the mom introduced the kid to her abductors through her opioid dealer. The media then ran an article on how much of Woodstock was addicted. Personally, I've had close family die of addiction to alcohol, opioids and nicotine, and the more it happens the harder I become... in my cases these weren't tragic people beset by bad luck, chronic injury or mental illness, but instead were a product of their choices. I tell my adult children about them, and I remind them that life is hard, positive and negative life choices and decisions are going to present themselves, and not everyone is going to make it through.. so watch your step, work hard and enjoy life.

 

[Northern Light]

I find it amazing how Canada's small towns are chockablock of opioids. I remember when Tori Stafford was kidnapped and murdered in Woodstock, ON that the mom introduced the kid to her abductors through her opioid dealer. The media then ran an article on how much of Woodstock was addicted. Personally, I've had close family die of addiction to alcohol, opioids and nicotine, and the more it happens the harder I become... in my cases these weren't tragic people beset by bad luck, chronic injury or mental illness, but instead were a product of their choices. I tell my adult children about them, and I remind them that life is hard, positive and negative life choices and decisions are going to present themselves, and not everyone is going to make it through.. so watch your step.

Not all, nor even most of Canada's small towns could be described as 'chockablock' with opioids, at least relative to anywhere else.

But many can.

While personal choices are certainly a driving factor; when you seen inordinate consumption of substances in w/e community there usually is an over-arching factor or factors at play.

That might be economic downturn, corrupt or insufficient or incompetent policing, it might be a single person of outsized influence, or it might be, in part, extreme boredom of teens or inadequate healthcare be it for chronic pain
or addictions.

Its certainly important to advise everyone on the need for personal responsibility and wise choices; but I'd be careful of leading w/that at the expense of addressing systemic problems in need of attention.