Admiral Beez
Superstar
Watching this vid makes me worried for Toronto's future, especially downtown east where I live.
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Seattle is Dying
- Thread starter Admiral Beez
- Start date
TrickyRicky
Senior Member
You're probably not going to get much traction with that here Admiral; however, I agree with the general thesis. It's the same here but just, in typical Toronto fashion, in more moderation and with the geographic reality that it's too cold here to live outside for much of the year.
You should attend a local meeting about any issue to deal with homelessness or a shelter or whatever. Professional activists who rarely are from the area or have anything to do with the purpose of the meeting flood the room shouting down anyone who wants to discuss the actual agenda of the meeting. They're shouting down the local community members, silencing discussion, intimidating people; people ironically who in my neighbourhood are overwhelming politically left-voting and highly sympathetic and concerned with social justice issues.
You should attend a local meeting about any issue to deal with homelessness or a shelter or whatever. Professional activists who rarely are from the area or have anything to do with the purpose of the meeting flood the room shouting down anyone who wants to discuss the actual agenda of the meeting. They're shouting down the local community members, silencing discussion, intimidating people; people ironically who in my neighbourhood are overwhelming politically left-voting and highly sympathetic and concerned with social justice issues.
Towered
Senior Member
It's an hour-long video - I watched the first 10 minutes and it seemed to list all the problems afflicting Seattle with regards to homelessness and property theft. Does it offer solutions at any point?
Northern Light
Superstar
Why do you have to say stuff like this?
An hour is a long time for a video without an index indicating the content discussed.
I long ago watched the whole thing; but I must say it was incredibly taxing and mediocre journalism.
The reporter defends it; (in this piece by Forbes..)
Seattle Isn't Dying Yet, But The Latest Debate Might Kill It
Efficiency is compassionate, and a system that allows more housing solutions, meets people where they are, and creates accountability is both efficient and compassionate.
www.forbes.com
and I would gladly accept there is a legitimate and serious issue at play.
How he chose to package it I find problematic.
But I digress.
@Towered was simply asking........."Is there something you want me to learn here......what part should I listen to"
Your answer was to insult him.
That's the sort of thing that sparks aggressive reprimands and dismissal of everything you have to say.
When, frankly, you have a lot of intelligent stuff to say.
But in belittling others...........you ruin your opportunity to be heard.
Try harder.
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Northern Light
Superstar
Stop!
You began your posting career here with a lot of credibility as a moderate, thoughtful, poster.
You nearly destroyed it over the course of a year, making increasingly extreme posts with no intellectual foundation.
I called you on it; whether that had any role or not, you've recently returned to your historical trend of thoughtful posting.
Now this.
Instead of just bashing professional activists, why not speak about the issues themselves?
Listen, I've attended my share of meetings and rolled my eyes at the odd ideologue/extremist whose blathering gets noone anywhere.
But.....instead of bashing with broad strokes, why not speak of the affordable housing crisis; the wait times for addiction treatment or mental healthcare?
Why not talk about the shortage of inpatient mental healthcare beds?
Maybe consider, all those factors that contribute to questionable choices.
Instead, you spout a reactionary line more inclined to draw a hateful or dismissive response, instead of constructive addressing the issue.
You're capable of better.
Admiral Beez
Superstar
@Northern Light I‘ve ignored your posts for so long now that I‘ve forgotten you exist here. I don’t know what you’ve posted above, but I can only assume based on your history that’s it’s to admonish both me and @TrickyRicky for posting something that’s irked you. I expect there’s also your requisite condescending jibes masked as suggestions how we can all improve. @Northern Light, post whatever rubbish you wish, IDC. IMO this forum is a better place without you in my feed.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
Fundamentally the header is sensationalist - Seattle isn't dying; it is experiencing problems that a fair number of extremely successful cities are (and there are effective solutions to those - not necessarily of the type mentioned in the piece); what are truly dying is small towns slowly emptying out and facing demographic time bombs. That's real dying that is pretty impervious to government intervention.
The icing on the cake? These very rural towns in the US (and Canada) are often the loci of opioid and fentanyl abuse.
AoD
The icing on the cake? These very rural towns in the US (and Canada) are often the loci of opioid and fentanyl abuse.
AoD
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Northern Light
Superstar
Fundamentally, I don't know why you have such a hatred of me when I go out of my way to compliment you on your better posts.
Everyone else just ignores you or condescends to you.
But if you feel that's better, you go and ahead and enjoy being looked down upon by others.
Admiral Beez
Superstar
In 2018 I stayed in Seattle as part of an Alaskan cruise. I was shocked at how the downtown was surrendered to those with addictions and mentally illness. I would watch the Seattle police do nothing as folks defecated on the sidewalk, ran half naked, screaming up the middle of the road, while others injected drugs or begged for money right in front of the transit stations. Then there’s homeless sleeping in parks, on sidewalks, benches, etc... and the smell of urine is pervasive. The solutions in the video seem doable: enforce the laws against public intoxication, drug use and nuisance; provide housing for everyone, including supportive housing and treatment for those with addiction and mental health issues. Washington state and the city of Seattle have a massive tax base, they could afford to do this. The solution is right in front of them, and the above video covers most of the issues and how to solve them. I thought Democrats were about tax and spend, but in Seattle and San Francisco they seem to be more about neglect .
I have attended a few, especially the Regent Park redevelopment meetings. I don’t recall anyone shouting down the speakers. Instead I found the meetings informative and a nice way to meet the neighbours. Though I have not attended meetings about homelessness or shelters, and the way you describe them makes me glad.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
You can't even begin to talk about enforcement if you don't have the solution ready, and in sufficient availability - but we all know it is more convenient to talk tough and do nothing (it's someone else's problem; I don't want higher taxes, etc) than to actually do something and take a political hit. We have seen it here first hand. Legalize drugs, make sure they are available at cost cheap through the government (cut off the criminal elements); make sure you have support services ready to channel them out. But who would want to face the voters with the twin scourge - moral hazard and higher taxes?
AoD
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Admiral Beez
Superstar
Good points. I remember reading about Tori Stafford’s abduction and murder in Woodstock and how the girl was introduced to her killer through her mother’s opioid dealer. I thought to myself, that’s crazy, until I learned that much of the town were opioid addicts.
Five years ago I hurt my sciatic nerve and crawled into emerg at Toronto General. The doctor looked at me for five minutes and I left with a script for the opioid Percocet. I took one, and said to myself, I feel like dizzy, hazy crap, why do these have any street value? I took them to Shoppers for disposal. But it must give others some sort of high.
I don’t see many obvious addicts in downtown east anymore. In fact Allan Gardens park has become a more pleasant place to walk. People of all sorts are sitting on benches and chatting. Is Toronto doing something Seattle is not, or maybe I’m just seeing my little piece.
Admiral Beez
Superstar
Seattle’s approach of “talk progressive and still do nothing“ seems equally nefarious. If you‘re going to do nothing, stop the virtue signalling and at least be honest about it.
I’d accept a 50% property tax increase if it cleaned up our streets in the ways you suggest above. I don’t live in a bubble.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
Their problem seem to be they can't decide what they want (it's pretty clear there are different camps of "progressives" - and they can't agree on the course of action). Also, and this is an "unpleasant" reality - you will always have a certain percentage of people who will always remain dependent, and will require support in order to stay housed - is the public ready to deal with the cost of this reality as a commitment?
The Portuguese experiment is worth trying:
Portugal’s radical drugs policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?
The long read: Since it decriminalised all drugs in 2001, Portugal has seen dramatic drops in overdoses, HIV infection and drug-related crime
www.theguardian.com
AoD
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jayme2016
Active Member
Yet if you look at the Byward Market in Ottawa its got much much worse is Toronto doing something different i don't think so it could be a mix of factors.
Admiral Beez
Superstar
That was a good article. The first of three pillars, “that there’s no such thing as a soft or hard drug, only healthy and unhealthy relationships with drugs;” would be a big change for North American thinking. With its legalization and now active participation in its production and distribution, governments at different levels across North America have clearly decided that cannabis is a soft drug. But crack cocaine and opioids will be a big step.Their problem seem to be they can't decide what they want (it's pretty clear there are different camps of "progressives" - and they can't agree on the course of action). Also, and this is an "unpleasant" reality - you will always have a certain percentage of people who will always remain dependent, and will require support in order to stay housed - is the public ready to deal with the cost of this reality as a commitment?
The Portuguese experiment is worth trying:
Portugal’s radical drugs policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?
The long read: Since it decriminalised all drugs in 2001, Portugal has seen dramatic drops in overdoses, HIV infection and drug-related crime
AoD
Closing Ontario’s mental institutions, or what we called asylums in the 1980s was clearly a mistake. They should have been reformed, and expanded to supportive housing for those in need. I do wonder what Toronto will look like in 30 years when I’m an old man. Will we still have mentally ill, addicted and homeless folks screaming and shaking outside my local No Frills. Will we end up like Seattle and San Francisco? Is there any North American city that has does a good job tackling these issues? When I go to Manhattan, at least in the tourist areas I see far less of what is evident across Seattle and SF.
I remember the first time I saw east Hastings in Vancouver, my first thought that a big “Etch A Sketch” shakeup reset is needed. First, remove all street residents, temporarily house everyone, expropriate the land, and knock down most of the buildings. Then build mixed income and supportive housing. But I‘m just rambling on fantasizing now. It will be interesting to see how Biden and Harris change the US war on drugs.