saveoursubways (SOS)

[nfitz]

A) Subway stations where zonage allows it will massively draw new residents...(not pulling it out of my ass Nfitz..its a known fact)

Future ridership projections were already based on densification (which is a great reason why projected ridership increases with time). Surely what you need to do is quantify the densification and detail how it is different than the densification in the original projections.

 

[Ansem]

Future ridership projections were already based on densification (which is a great reason why projected ridership increases with time). Surely what you need to do is quantify the densification and detail how it is different than the densification in the original projections.

All I can say is that its not realistic that the TTC's numbers have changed that much...

They are the one who should explain what happened here...
Off course, no chance they'll even bother to justify it...

 

[nfitz]

All I can say is that its not realistic that the TTC's numbers have changed that much...

You keep saying that ... but I have pointed out that one if for HRT and the other for LRT, so you would expect the LRT number to be smaller. One is also for a direct connection to Scarborough Centre, while the other doesn't run there; that would also account for some of the difference.

 

[Ansem]

You keep saying that ... but I have pointed out that one if for HRT and the other for LRT, so you would expect the LRT number to be smaller. One is also for a direct connection to Scarborough Centre, while the other doesn't run there; that would also account for some of the difference.

LRT=3000 pph
HRT=5000 pph (they didn't event study it going to STC)

From RTES
HRT=8400 going to Scarborough Centre


I guess that would explain the difference...

RTES studied Don Mills to STC
and for Transit city, the HRT study doesn't say specify the route...

Like I told you a while back...

If you control the criterias of a study, you can make them say whatever you wnat them to say...

It kinda of prouve they had LRT in mind...

I will read the study again but I kind of think they didn't even bother to specify where the HRT would go... 5000 for HRT on Sheppard east going to STC is unrealistic and laughable

 

[nfitz]

The summary reports are woefully lacking in details. I would hope that TTC had the consultants provide them with far more detailed reports than what gets digested.

 

[Ansem]

The summary reports are woefully lacking in details. I would hope that TTC had the consultants provide them with far more detailed reports than what gets digested.

and the TTC choose what to share with us and what to exclude...because they wanted LRT and not subways

 

[gweed123]

So basically, your pulling it our of your ass!

You can't honestly tell me that if a report from 2001 states 8,500 pph which justifies subway, and a report from 2007 states 5,000 pph and justifies LRT, that the latter one is correct. Travel patterns and densities have not changed significantly since 2001, so what would explain the 3,500 drop? Oh, right, YOU FUDGED THE NUMBERS!!!

It doesn't take a genius to see that if the TTC went into the study saying "how can we justify LRT?" that they wouldn't fudge a few numbers here and there, underproject a few routes, or even change the alignment of the subway from one that would be the most beneficial (referring to the alignment to go to STC). When you do a study and begin with the end result in mind, you can make the study say whatever you want it to say. It's clear that's what the TTC did in the case of the TC studies.

 

[kettal]

If Eglinton LRT can reach 28-31 km/h on the west surface route, why can't Sheppard?

Because Sheppard has more intersections. Duh.

 

[gweed123]

Future ridership projections were already based on densification (which is a great reason why projected ridership increases with time). Surely what you need to do is quantify the densification and detail how it is different than the densification in the original projections.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but were the densification projections not based on LRT? If so, I would imagine they would be substantially increased for subways. A dedicated ROW with underground heated stations, etc, is a much bigger magnet for densification than a bus shelter in the middle of the street on a glorified streetcar line.

It's difficult to quantify the amount of densification though, because so much of it depends on city zoning policies, which the TTC has little influence over. This is also why I believe a lot of rapid transit initiatives fail, because people refuse to recognize or to act on the link between transportation policies and land use policies/zoning.

 

[Ansem]

Because Sheppard has more intersections. Duh.

uhhh, the EA study state that achieving 27km/h on SE was possible...with a 800m spacing...

They chose to have it 400m and that explained the 22km/h...

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

At what stage is the SOS report at?

 

[nfitz]

You can't honestly tell me that if a report from 2001 states 8,500 pph which justifies subway, and a report from 2007 states 5,000 pph and justifies LRT, that the latter one is correct. Travel patterns and densities have not changed significantly since 2002, so what would explain the 3,500 drop? Oh, right, YOU FUDGED THE NUMBERS!!!

Oh good grief, the alignments aren't even the same.

I'm really tired of the hypocritical posts that trash the TTC for a bias in reports, when the prime motive of the poster is their own bias for wanting subways rather than LRT.

And even if the TTC were trying to bias against subways ... then surely in the 2002 report when they were trying to get the Sheppard extension built, then the 8,400 estimate of ridership 20 years in the future, is enough to clearly demonstrate that subway isn't warranted!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but were the densification projections not based on LRT?

No, the 2002 study that shows that potential subway ridership is well below that where subway should be considered, is not absed on LRT; presumably later studies that show even lower numbers are.

uhhh, the EA study state that achieving 27km/h on SE was possible...with a 800m spacing...

They chose to have it 400m and that explained the 22km/h...

And this is the kind of thing that one should be campaigning for ... to decrease the number of stops and make other changes to speed up the LRT.

 

[Ansem]

And this is the kind of thing that one should be campaigning for ... to decrease the number of stops and make other changes to speed up the LRT.

If Giambrone and Miller were to stay then maybe but it would be very unlickely they would listen since they would have to maintain a bus service...
so they say...

Bloor and Danforth are doing fine during the day...
It shows how much "they would listen"

They'll be gone and the biggest flaw is that the LRT is not going to STC...

 

[nfitz]

If Giambrone and Miller were to stay then maybe

? What do you mean ... no one is going anywhere until at least December 2010. Obviously if you haven't made any success in getting the Sheppard East LRT cancelled by then, you'll be way too late!

Not sure what you mean by Bloor and Danforth ...

 

[Ansem]

? What do you mean ... no one is going anywhere until at least December 2010. Obviously if you haven't made any success in getting the Sheppard East LRT cancelled by then, you'll be way too late!

Not sure what you mean by Bloor and Danforth ...

I'm being realistic and I think we made it clear that we're fighting for

Complete Sheppard Subway to STC

**We know LRT construction will have started.
Morningside to Agincourt would be LRT if the next mayor change his mind...

Correct me if I'm wrong, I thought there was limited bus service on Danforth during the day...