Dan416
Senior Member
Yeah it doesn't make sense since they'll have to replace the whole service with buses in the interim, won't they?
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saveoursubways (SOS)
- Thread starter kEiThZ
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Yeah it doesn't make sense since they'll have to replace the whole service with buses in the interim, won't they?
LowerBay
Active Member
I used to hate driving downtown too, but after a while, you get used to it.
SOS' emphasis should be on the DRL -- that's what's needed most. Suburban expansion can come later.
SOS' emphasis should be on the DRL -- that's what's needed most. Suburban expansion can come later.
kettal
Banned
I think it's guaranteed that the line will be a split line, with overlap between Keele and Don Mills. That would be the most logical way to run it.
Rainforest
Senior Member
I'm not so sure, on both accounts.
S.O.S won't be able to block the start of Sheppard LRT construction, but it will start from the east. Hence, there is a chance to get extra funding and upgrade the western portion of the route, which would mean extending the subway to Kennedy at least.
On the other hand, replacement of SRT with Danforth subway extension will be hardest to sell. People will ask "why build a new tunnel, when a fully exclusive ROW exists already". Actually, there may be advantages in doing so, such as less expensive LRT east of Scarborough Centre, and releasing space for enhanced GO service on Uxbridge sub - but those considerations are quite remote for the general public.
Rainforest
Senior Member
A human can get used to almost anything. I just think that drawbacks exceed benefits.
Yeah, DRL is needed most. Viability of the whole subway network is at stake.
Unless we are rescued by a sudden drop of the overall trips downtown, or by that type of ridership becoming less peak-oriented - but even such relief might be temporary.
LowerBay
Active Member
I may be in the minority here, but I see nothing wrong with upgrading the SRT to accept the newer ICTS trains. ICTS is as good as a subway, except when it snows ... and why is the transfer at Kennedy more of a pain in the ass than the transfers at Bloor-Yonge and St. George? In theory, none of these forced transfers should exist. St. George was never a transfer station, and Bloor-Yonge was designed as a minor transfer point.
LowerBay
Active Member
Forgot to add this to my previous post as to why the DRL should go first.
https://gencat4.eloquent-systems.co...esource/fo1567/ser648/s0648_fl0211_id0001.jpg
Look at how light transfer moves at Bloor-Yonge were when the lines ran as one. A DRL could bring us back to that.
https://gencat4.eloquent-systems.co...esource/fo1567/ser648/s0648_fl0211_id0001.jpg
Look at how light transfer moves at Bloor-Yonge were when the lines ran as one. A DRL could bring us back to that.
Fresh Start
Banned
I agree with both you and kettal. The Pam Am Games should really be a motive for the City/Metrolinx to fast-track and prioritize the Bloor-Danforth extension with Ellesmere between SCC and Scarborough Campus turned into a BRT corridor. The pitch would be that bi-directional operations on the Stoufville GO line could commence via using a different alignment i.e. Eglinton-Danforth-McCowan. Progress BRT could also become a priority, operating through the same elevated structure as the RT/LRT would to offer exclusive private ROW to Centennial College and Sheppard East. Using Neilson thereafter (wide enough to support BRT lanes), a non-stop routing into M.T.C. would be possible.
Seeing as the SMLRT is probably way off from happening, a second station along Eglinton East is critical to alleviating the bus traffic that heads into Kennedy. A time savings of 10 minutes could be achieved along 54 Lawrence East moving the transfer point from Kennedy Rd to McCowan (which also has on-site and nearby nodal density).
And if the TTC's still not convinced, just look at the math... $1.4 B for S(L)RT expansion and extension, $1.8 B maximum for a 3-stop extension to SCC (most of the preexisting station facilities at SCC can be recycled). Assuming the cost to build BRT ROWs to Malvern and UTSC are roughly $100 M a piece, that's $2 B to provide mass transit to a broader segment of the population.
I take it as a very good sign that the LRT is working its way back towards the subway rather than commencing from it. A lot of things could go down in the interim years (you know, like the money well goes dry or public/political consensus is swayed) that could prevent a full SELRT. For the areas that do receive LRT it'll trigger redevelopment and job creation, which ultimately is a common good. Remove the most expensive part of that project from the equation and the price of the line goes back down to $40 million for 10.5 km ($420 million). A far easier pill to swallow.
Fresh Start
Banned
Are you for real? You think a 4-level interchange is in any way comparable to ascending/descending just one escalator? ICTS would be incompatible to the other LRT fleets being brought in for Transit City. It makes sense to stick to just one technology mode such that vehicles can easily be moved and operated on several different lines throughout the city. Personally, I feel that the SRT was a lesson in bad transit planning, not to be repeated. Letting it go frees up space to expand the Stoufville corridor and the remaining space could be paved over and used for express bus operations. The level of demand for the Scarborough Centre area is growing steadily each year and soon the SRT of any stripe will not be able to accommodate the surplus (overcrowding on the SRT is already a major problem). Best to push for the B-D extension while it is still feasible to do so.
Fresh Start
Banned
Steve's flippant response is not shocking. I think professional planners and advocates such as him have it ingrained that their level of expertise and practical knowledge trumps most criticism even where the critiques may be valid. The time and amount for research they've invested makes it hard for them to admit argumentative defeat. That said, we shouldn't count on him for a ringing endorsement. He may have suggested that the southern end of DMLRT be incorporated into the DRL instead but given the logistical challenges of getting the LRT across the Don Valley and down the narrow width of Pape; it's almost a no-brainer to just op for a subway. So I don't really consider his about face on this one LRT vs. HRT matter to mean a thing.
LowerBay
Active Member
Transit City will be far worse than keeping the SRT/ICTS system.
LowerBay
Active Member
And don't forget he originally wanted the DRL built as LRT, and ridiculed anyone who said it should go under Queen downtown.
EnviroTO
Senior Member
I think Transit City will be successful. Eglinton LRT and Scarborough RT will show how fast and similar to a subway in quality an LRT can be. Sheppard and Finch LRT will show how LRT can provide a more local service. It will clarify that the TTC sees itself as a local transit authority and not a regional one. All the routes will see significant ridership growth after implementation. Transit will have improved compared to the do nothing option and people on the improved routes will see reliable schedules (not fast but reliable and with the capacity currently required) on the Sheppard and Finch lines, on the Eglinton line will see much improved trip times, and Scarborough line will see fleet commonality with the rest of the system, greater capacity than exists today, and equivalent trip times.
andrewpmk
Senior Member
Not even close.
People will only use the DLR if it is convenient to do so. This means that they will only use it if it gets them reasonably close to their destinations, e.g. if the DLR goes through King, then people going to Queen/Yonge or Dundas/Yonge will be less likely to use it. Others will continue to transfer at Bloor-Yonge. Reducing the number of stops on the DLR east of Yonge, and building a cross-platform transfer at the point where it intersects Danforth, would help a bit here.
The DLR will certainly help reduce transfers at Bloor-Yonge, and it will help relieve the Yonge line even more if it is built north of Danforth on Don Mills, but the problems at Bloor-Yonge will not disappear forever. The DLR will only delay the need to expand Bloor-Yonge, not eliminate it.
It's even worse than that, because at least at the end of the day North Yorkers were getting an upgrade. From my point of view, Scarberians are getting a downgrade with the SRT replacement...
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