Saks Fifth Avenue Flagship (Queen & Yonge)

[skylyte]

From what I’ve heard and been privy to, Saks is only really looking at the Bloor site and the Sears site at Yorkdale.

Nordstrom’s will have a new build at Yorkdale, is looking at the Sears site at Sherway and is kicking the tires at Square 1 (which they have to do to get into Yorkdale).

Carrefour has looked at Canada as a potential landing spot as has Debenhams. I have heard that Karstadt (KaDeWe) has looked at a potential few locations and know that Harvey Nicholas and Bloomingdales have looked at one off crown jewel type stores in Toronto (in Harvey Nicks case in conjunction with a Canadian developer in NYC as well).

Were the "scouting parties" of KaDeWe, Debenhams, Carrefour and Harvey Nicks recent developments? I am surprised we haven't seen a return of Marks and Spencers or the introduction of Aldi or Daimaru to the Canadian market. Odds are, they would do well.

 

[ToroTO]

If only Eaton's College St. store hadn't been brutalized for College Park, the Art Deco/Moderne detailing would have been perfect for an upscale dept. store like Saks, though it is rather removed from the desirable Yorkville area.

 

[dt_toronto_geek]

The challenges for converting the Bay store are two-fold: 1) The awkward half-flight up above grade to the main floor and, 2) The low ceiling heights throughout the store. These goes beyond façade treatment.

I think that the owners should bite the bullet and do a full demolition, including the underground mall. Though I can appreciate the business case for maintaining income from the underground mall and saving on structure, it is ultimately a short-sighted solution, similar to doing a renovation to an intrinsically badly designed house, whereas as starting from scratch would give you exactly what you want.

Interesting article in the "Retail Insider" which raises some of these points: http://www.retail-insider.com/

Again, there's a 42 storey apartment building above this property, a 30-something storey condo, about six levels of above grade parking, a hotel, a fitness facility, three or four levels of below grade parking - all the while working around the busiest subway transfer point in the city. This would easily be a billion dollar project, and there's the condo owners to deal with on top of that. Not going to happen.

 

[thecharioteer]

Again, there's a 42 storey apartment building above this property, a 30-something storey condo, about six levels of above grade parking, a hotel, a fitness facility, three or four levels of below grade parking - all the while working around the busiest subway transfer point in the city. This would easily be a billion dollar project, and there's the condo owners to deal with on top of that. Not going to happen.

I was referring to only the "store" portion itself and what's underneath it. The other buildings have to stay, of course, if only from a legal point-of-view (Tenant Protection Act). Question is how much of the block is actually part of the "store" (does it go up to Asquith, east of the Bell building? Doesn't seem to). Does it extend under the hotel/rental building? To achieve the GFA that is being quoted, are we looking at 8-10-storey + department store (which is not unusual in NY)?

 

[Bruno Republic]

Question is how much of the block is actually part of the "store" (does it go up to Asquith, east of the Bell building? Doesn't seem to).

Yes it does. There's an exit from one of the mens departments right onto Asquith.

 

[thecharioteer]

Scaling the "store" itself on Google Maps (imprecise at best), it seems to be about 160' X 200' = 32,000 per floor. At ten floors, just on this footprint, it would seem they can achieve their desired GFA.

 

[thecharioteer]

If only Eaton's College St. store hadn't been brutalized for College Park, the Art Deco/Moderne detailing would have been perfect for an upscale dept. store like Saks, though it is rather removed from the desirable Yorkville area.

Positive thing is that the "brutalization" seems reversible if another department store took over.

 

[Edward Skira]

Yes it does. There's an exit from one of the mens departments right onto Asquith.

You have to wonder about the design of this store in the first place. Why they made it so hard to find The Bay. I've entered and exited the subway here a million times, and I know there's a Bay Store somewhere but the design is so poor that I've never actually been inside it. I've always thought the entrance to the west of the subway was just a mini cosmetic store so I never ventured in to go upstairs. How much business did this store lose by not making it very obvious it was there? Tearing down the store portion and doing it right seems like a perfect solution.

 

[Bruno Republic]

You have to wonder about the design of this store in the first place. Why they made it so hard to find The Bay.

Agreed, it's a terrible design; full of typical brutalist folly in how what should be immediate is hidden or tucked out of the way. It actually used to be worse: where the current concourse portion of the Bay is used to be a part of the mall that was so well-concealed it might as well have been invisible. Things don't get any better in the Bay store itself. When I first lived in the area in the mid-80s, I was in that store at least three times before I realized there were several more floors above the main one.

Unfortunately, demolishing the store seems unlikely for reasons already explained above.

 

[andrew1980]

Things don't get any better in the Bay store itself; when I first lived in the area in the mid-80s, I was in that store at least three times before I realized there were several more floors above the main one.

I'm not surprised you didn't realize there were more floors above. The escalators are walled in on either side and the up escalator faces away from most of the main floor. I honestly couldn't find it for a few minutes the last time I was in the store, even though I knew it was on the floor somewhere. Let's hope they open this up as part of their reno.

 

[thecharioteer]

Perhaps with a new building we could dream about a new generation of department stores architecturally. The most amazing one I ever saw was the ION Centre in Singapore:

 

[Tulse]

In looking at thecharioteer's photo, it seems to me there is a lot that could be done without demolishing the building (which simply isn't going to happen). A major renovation of the south wall, with large windows and an improved street-level presence, would do wonders to soften and humanize the building. The odd entrance on the south west corner could be used to advantage by creating a grand angled entrance to the store, perhaps with glass canopy or at least large windows. I think a lot of cosmetic changes (and some internal opening up of the space) could make the store area extremely nice, or at least far better than it is currently.

 

[dt_toronto_geek]

It is indeed a horrific layout with many low key entrances to The Bay store, and the Concourse save for the main subway entrance off Bloor St. The Bay store runs west to the elevators where the RBC entrance is up the stairs next to the "main" entrance, and east to Park Road. Thing is it has different size footprints over various floors. The main floor (subway entrance level) used to be shopping mall until late 90's when HBC demolished and added an additional floor there. 2nd floor (1/2 flight up) is the largest floor which also runs back to Asquith St. and to Park Road. 3rd floor & up are similar, it runs to equal to where the food court is below (2nd floor) and about half way to Asquith St. as I believe that's where the rear of the hotel begins. I think I have that right, roughly. It's a big mess.
Back around 1983 or 84 we had a big fire in the apartment tower. If you think the Bay store/mall/hotel etc. are confusing you should see the emergency exit stairwells. When fire crews arrived the apartment was fully engaged (the woman fled the apartment and left the apartment door ajar which didn't help matters) and the fire department had problems getting up. Presumably security lead them into one of the fire exits on Asquith St. but then they were met by two sets of locked doors on the way up, one at the HBC level and the other at the top of the hotel level where it changes to apartments. Communications failed because of all the concrete and when they finally got up to where the fire was the backup emergency services failed. How this building ever got approved to be built and met code is a mystery. The apartment was toast, one man died and there was lots of smoke damage. After that they had to install a large emergency generator on the roof of the apartment tower that has to be tested every week as emergency power backup, and then once a year all power in the eastern part of the property (top to bottom from RBC eastward) is turned off and the generator runs all night. It's a crazy setup there.

 

[thecharioteer]

In looking at thecharioteer's photo, it seems to me there is a lot that could be done without demolishing the building (which simply isn't going to happen). A major renovation of the south wall, with large windows and an improved street-level presence, would do wonders to soften and humanize the building. The odd entrance on the south west corner could be used to advantage by creating a grand angled entrance to the store, perhaps with glass canopy or at least large windows. I think a lot of cosmetic changes (and some internal opening up of the space) could make the store area extremely nice, or at least far better than it is currently.

Good points, Tulse. I wouldn't complain if they used the same architect who reclad the Matsuya Department store in Tokyo:

Before:

After:

 

[salsa]

It would be nice to see another tower get built on top of the mall as part of the redevelopment, similar to what's being done at Yorkville Plaza and Holt Renfrew (50 Bloor West).

Note: original image by thecharioteer