Rouge Bijou (Downtown Markham, Remington, 10 + 3x 7s, Quadrangle)

[Hydrogen]

That'd be a steam-powered scooter, then.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Was there really anywhere else a downtown Markham could grow? Markham consolidated several communities. If Thornhill was its own municipality, a thriving and actually urban downtown would have sprouted along Yonge, but Vaughan-Markham rivalry prevents that. Old Markham would have to be annihilated to grow...that option's a no-go. The Beaver Creek area is split with Richmond Hill. The Pacific Mall area is far too small for what Markham's vision encompassed.

And that's the problem...Markham Centre is too big for its own good. They could have built a small, urban downtown south of old Unionville, alongside the Stouffville line and #7, but they chose to start there and end their downtown next to Richmond Hill. They'll do an admirable job filling 6 or 8 square kilometres with medium to high density buildings and lots of good intentions, but it may not all work. Anyone who says the area's a patchwork that will take decades to become a cohesive neighbourhood is right. At least Mississauga and Scarborough have their malls to act as a central focus, even if this focus isn't conducive to traditional/walkable urban growth.

Markham Centre is - and perhaps will always be - missing the bits that make an area feel like downtown...the old buildings are ghettoed off in Unionville, the offices are ghettoed off closer to the highways, the retail is ghettoed into Downtown Markham. The civic centre is surrounded by grass, the big Hilton hotel at Warden & #7 is surrounded by grass, everything along #7 is surrounded by grass...#7 is being ignored by Markham Centre, not embraced. There's hardly any public or private institutions, yet you could say it is everything *other* than condos and office buildings that define an area's character. The 'town centre' area just west of Warden is being totally squandered. Where's the big town square/piazza? Where's the federal services building? Where's the tourist attractions/trap? Where's the churches? Where's the ESL or esthetics college, or the law firms in cute little custom designed buildings, or the hospital, or the museum, or the library, or the Markham branch office of the Danish Beekeepers Association? Can you create a vibrant downtown by including nothing other than master-planned condo complexes targeted at seniors and Asian investors, office parks filled with software companies, "natural" parkland (aka storm water management land), and a few retail podiums?

Downtown Markham could be a successful neighbourhood even if it doesn't match the renderings, but it's surrounded by parks and highways...it's in the wrong place! It should be shifted NE, closer to Unionville and the GO line, or shifted NW, closer to the civic centre, #7, and the 'town centre' area. The best plots of land in Markham, with the most potential, are probably along #7 east of Warden, but this land is being totally wasted. A street grid with small blocks - the hallmark of downtowns in the Western World - should be built here.

 

[PukeGreen]

This is an attempt to build an urban downtown by copying only the most superficial aspects of what makes a city a city: tallish buildings that are close together.

Granted, I am only seeing one render, but what I see in it does not look like a "downtown" to me at all. I see rows of identical buildings, all residential, and a sprinkling of homogenous suburbanites using the street for recreation only. I imagine that beneath those walls are parking garages filled with automobiles. I imagine that these render people will drive home from work in the evening and lock themselves behind their grand faux-historical walls and watch TV; when they need to buy food or a new TV, they will climb into their vehicles and emerge from their garages and drive into the heart of Real Markham, which is a sea of overly wide pseudo-freeways ringing monstrous parking lots and box stores. Then they'll drive back home again into the safety of their garages until the next excursion. When they want exercise they might take their bikes and scooters (mere toys) out of the garage and ride them around the vicinity for a bit. But they won't use them as transportation.

There is nothing truly urban about this concept. There is no mixed use of residential, retail and office space. Nobody can wander out their door and pick up a coffee in the lobby of their building, drop off some books at the library, then walk down the street to a small grocery store and pick up a few things for dinner. There's no urban messiness: no mix of pretentious yuppies and hard-working new immigrants and I'm-so-cool hipsters all sharing common spaces and being forced to occassionally -- gasp! -- interact with each other. There is no sign of a day-to-night transformation of the neighbourhood when the suits head home and the bar-hoppers head out.

I don't see pedestrians, taxis, buses, bikes, scooters and delivery vans all fighting for driving and parking space in an eternal competition to get around. Unless there is some stunning secret transit plan in the works, every adult in this "downtown" will need to own a car should they ever wish to escape the confines of their glorious compound. There will be no TTC, no GO, and probably not even a Viva within walking or cycling distance.

Most importantly, there is simply no LIFE in those renders, or in the photos of the semi-completed concrete-boxes-in-fields. I wouldn't want to fly over that hideous neighbourhood in a 747 nevermind live in it.

What I see here is suburbia with different shaped buildings. And frankly, based on my years working in Markham and visiting acquaintaces who live there, I'm pretty sure most Markhamites are pretty happy with their suburban surroundings. That's why they live there, and if they wanted a "downtown" they would move a half-hour south. That's fine. But please don't insult suburbanites and urbanites alike by building this monstrosity and calling it a "downtown".

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Granted, I am only seeing one render, but what I see in it does not look like a "downtown" to me at all....There is nothing truly urban about this concept. There is no mixed use of residential, retail and office space.

Well, there should be thousands of jobs and tens of thousands of retail square footage within a block, and a GO station a few blocks farther. Downtown Markham isn't the problem, Markham Centre at large is the problem...Downtown Markham certainly won't have any walkable or community ties to, say, the offices at Rodick & 7.

Neighbourhoods can be successful and urban without yuppies and hipsters...but the media won't pick up on them except for occasional 'ironic field trip' blog reports or 'celebrating Toronto's diversity' 6pm fluff news stories. Markham may end up being a quietly improved - but not cool - suburb.

 

[Solaris]

unlike the typical suburbia in the rest of Town, Markham Centre is one that will contain contain a mix of retail, employment, and residential ... what I have shown in Remington's rendering previously illustrate the residential projects that are currently on the market ... to date Honeywell and Motorola are office buildings that exist in the area ... indeed there is no TTC (why would there be? this is not TO), but in case you don't already know VIVA transit serves this hub in connection to the GO station at the eastern edge of the site

everything you see on site based on the photos previously posted illustrate the first phase of construction which is underway ... no one has moved in yet ... and it takes time for all components of a new 'community' to come together, as the plan builds itself out, grade retail elements (cafes, small grocery stores) catering to local residents' needs will materialize ... you can not judge something based on incompleted buildings in a multi-phase development (to occur over 15 years)

 

[rpgr]

Well, there should be thousands of jobs and tens of thousands of retail square footage within a block, and a GO station a few blocks farther. Downtown Markham isn't the problem, Markham Centre at large is the problem...Downtown Markham certainly won't have any walkable or community ties to, say, the offices at Rodick & 7.

Neighbourhoods can be successful and urban without yuppies and hipsters...but the media won't pick up on them except for occasional 'ironic field trip' blog reports or 'celebrating Toronto's diversity' 6pm fluff news stories. Markham may end up being a quietly improved - but not cool - suburb.

Downtown Markham to me has a feel similar to that of a lot of suburbs. It feels more like a park with houses than a major urban center. The lack of retail hurts it. If they had a bigger mall across from the Arts center (where the future shop/ no frills / Victorian themed Chinese restaurant complete with maid outfit fetish >.>) it would be more of a draw (although I'm sure for all you non-Chinese guys probably perked up on that Victorian themed Chinese restaurant complete with maid fetish thing).

Edit... should i mention this in the retail section >.> ... <.<

 

[rpgr]

This is an attempt to build an urban downtown by copying only the most superficial aspects of what makes a city a city: tallish buildings that are close together.

Granted, I am only seeing one render, but what I see in it does not look like a "downtown" to me at all. I see rows of identical buildings, all residential, and a sprinkling of homogenous suburbanites using the street for recreation only. I imagine that beneath those walls are parking garages filled with automobiles. I imagine that these render people will drive home from work in the evening and lock themselves behind their grand faux-historical walls and watch TV; when they need to buy food or a new TV, they will climb into their vehicles and emerge from their garages and drive into the heart of Real Markham, which is a sea of overly wide pseudo-freeways ringing monstrous parking lots and box stores. Then they'll drive back home again into the safety of their garages until the next excursion. When they want exercise they might take their bikes and scooters (mere toys) out of the garage and ride them around the vicinity for a bit. But they won't use them as transportation.

There is nothing truly urban about this concept. There is no mixed use of residential, retail and office space. Nobody can wander out their door and pick up a coffee in the lobby of their building, drop off some books at the library, then walk down the street to a small grocery store and pick up a few things for dinner. There's no urban messiness: no mix of pretentious yuppies and hard-working new immigrants and I'm-so-cool hipsters all sharing common spaces and being forced to occassionally -- gasp! -- interact with each other. There is no sign of a day-to-night transformation of the neighbourhood when the suits head home and the bar-hoppers head out.

I don't see pedestrians, taxis, buses, bikes, scooters and delivery vans all fighting for driving and parking space in an eternal competition to get around. Unless there is some stunning secret transit plan in the works, every adult in this "downtown" will need to own a car should they ever wish to escape the confines of their glorious compound. There will be no TTC, no GO, and probably not even a Viva within walking or cycling distance.

Most importantly, there is simply no LIFE in those renders, or in the photos of the semi-completed concrete-boxes-in-fields. I wouldn't want to fly over that hideous neighbourhood in a 747 nevermind live in it.

What I see here is suburbia with different shaped buildings. And frankly, based on my years working in Markham and visiting acquaintaces who live there, I'm pretty sure most Markhamites are pretty happy with their suburban surroundings. That's why they live there, and if they wanted a "downtown" they would move a half-hour south. That's fine. But please don't insult suburbanites and urbanites alike by building this monstrosity and calling it a "downtown".

Actually they can. Downtown Markham has a bunch of buildings with retail space at the 1st floor and indeed Majestic Court will be another one. The arts center/city hall is there as is a no frills and... see my above post

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Downtown Markham to me has a feel similar to that of a lot of suburbs. It feels more like a park with houses than a major urban center. The lack of retail hurts it. If they had a bigger mall across from the Arts center (where the future shop/ no frills / Victorian themed Chinese restaurant complete with maid outfit fetish >.>) it would be more of a draw (although I'm sure for all you non-Chinese guys probably perked up on that Victorian themed Chinese restaurant complete with maid fetish thing).

Edit... should i mention this in the retail section >.> ... <.<

Actually they can. Downtown Markham has a bunch of buildings with retail space at the 1st floor and indeed Majestic Court will be another one. The arts center/city hall is there as is a no frills and... see my above post

You're conflicting yourself here...will Downtown Markham have a lack of retail or will it have buildings with retail podiums? The renderings clearly show a piazza with what looks like an outdoor lifestyle centre intended to have a certain number of chain stores (and not just dry cleaners and tiny sushi shops). All of these Markham threads just turn into generic suburb bashing unless people differentiate between Remington's "Downtown Markham" and Markham Centre, which is all of "downtown" Markham. Markham's projects are poorly branded.

The civic centre and No Frills are hardly going to be a quick walk away from most Downtown Markham homes. They'll be a full 1km away, which turns into much more if people are trying to stop off at the No Frills after getting off Viva or GO. Clearly, they'll need to add much more stuff to Downtown Markham if they don't want 90+% of trips to be made in cars.

 

[ShonTron]

I went over to the sales office there on Saturday and walked around (despite the lack of sidewalks!). Right now the site is rather strange, though the Motorola and the near complete Honeywell building and the U/C first phase condos help. I just wouldn't want to live there until more is finished - for the first five years at least, it will be a car-dependent area, even with Viva along Enterprise and GO on site. The models are impressive, and I grabbed the master plan brochure, which is neat to leaf through with all the maps and plans. I'm a bit skeptical that it will work, but it is a bold attempt, and so far, consumers have bought in.

I've posted to Spacing with a link to this thread, hopefully bringing more traffic this way.

Here's a few picks (flickr):

Walking around (Saturday 26th):

A long way to go!

I'm fond of this:

 

[scarberiankhatru]

This model shows why Markham is going to have to work overtime, weekends, and holidays to connect Downtown Markham with the rest of downtown Markham...highways, megarterials, and valley parklands aren't exactly the best glue to hold a continuous urban environment together. Downtown Markham may not be big enough on its own and if it doesn't have that critical mass of retail and jobs and everything else, it'll have to rely on its road and transit connections, like a European suburb or one of those idyllic satellite suburbs. We'll see...*dum dum dum*

 

[rpgr]

You're conflicting yourself here...will Downtown Markham have a lack of retail or will it have buildings with retail podiums? The renderings clearly show a piazza with what looks like an outdoor lifestyle centre intended to have a certain number of chain stores (and not just dry cleaners and tiny sushi shops). All of these Markham threads just turn into generic suburb bashing unless people differentiate between Remington's "Downtown Markham" and Markham Centre, which is all of "downtown" Markham. Markham's projects are poorly branded.

The civic centre and No Frills are hardly going to be a quick walk away from most Downtown Markham homes. They'll be a full 1km away, which turns into much more if people are trying to stop off at the No Frills after getting off Viva or GO. Clearly, they'll need to add much more stuff to Downtown Markham if they don't want 90+% of trips to be made in cars.

I'm not really contradicting myself. There will be shoppes but no big mall "shopping experience". Current trends point to include retail space on the 1st floors of condos every block or so (therefore people should be able to get their basics easily).

Shoppes however do not make a good downtown feel unless they want to emphasize the "town" part of that. Part of me can't quite get out of my head that "shoppes" are just the new "plaza". Remember those? There's a nice thread in the retail section showcasing how derelict they've become.

 

[doady]

This model shows why Markham is going to have to work overtime, weekends, and holidays to connect Downtown Markham with the rest of downtown Markham...highways, megarterials, and valley parklands aren't exactly the best glue to hold a continuous urban environment together. Downtown Markham may not be big enough on its own

Do you realize that Downtown Markham is one of the largest condo projects in the GTA, if not THE largest? Perhaps even larger than Cityplace? If anything, the huge size the problem. I am not fond of mega projects like this.

 

[marcus_a_j]

Me neither. I prefer it the way that the Fort York lands, West Don Lands and East Bayfront are going to be developed, with different developers building on a particular block. Liberty Village is the same, different builders on different blocks. When more than one developer is building in an area, it creates some competition and encourages better designs and layouts, creating a more interesting 'hood if they are following a carefully crafted secondary/block plan. Seeing as Remington (probably) owns all the land, they are just going to be the ones building.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

I'm not really contradicting myself. There will be shoppes but no big mall "shopping experience". Current trends point to include retail space on the 1st floors of condos every block or so (therefore people should be able to get their basics easily).

Shoppes however do not make a good downtown feel unless they want to emphasize the "town" part of that. Part of me can't quite get out of my head that "shoppes" are just the new "plaza". Remember those? There's a nice thread in the retail section showcasing how derelict they've become.

I think you should go over the plans again before going on in one post about how the lack of retail hurts it and then disagreeing with someone who said there's no pedestrian-oriented retail by replying that there'll be stores all over. There won't be an indoor mall, but what do you think "Montgomery High Street, The Piazza, The Gallery, and Simcoe Promenade" are - an outdoor lifestyle centre! Restaurants, chain stores, etc.

Do you realize that Downtown Markham is one of the largest condo projects in the GTA, if not THE largest? Perhaps even larger than Cityplace? If anything, the huge size the problem. I am not fond of mega projects like this.

No, it's clearly not big enough for the vision they intend it to be...it's isolated from the rest of Markham Centre so it can't rely on all those other residents and jobs and parks and stores and pedestrians and attention, and those areas won't benefit from Downtown Markham's residents and workers. Do you realize how many additional people and how many jobs and stores and other things are within a 5-10 minute walk of CityPlace? What do you think will be within a 5-10 minute walk of Downtown Markham? That's right, the IBM campus, a GO station, and a few seniors homes.

I haven't seen any plans that really address the suburban megarterial nature of both Warden and #7, yet they can't possibly tie all of Markham Centre together without doing so...if they any intention doing so. Perhaps Markham just has that "one municipality, three (or more) heritage communities" mentality, so they figure their new downtown area can function the same way. The "Markham Centre" plans aren't much more than guidelines for developers to turn individual vacant lands into whatever version of urban they see fit...there doesn't seem to be any overarching/overall plans that acknowledge the size of area they're attempting to change other than a regularly updated construction roundup.

That's why Downtown Markham has been built as a seemingly self-contained community. It's not, though, which will become apparent when built to people who haven't already noticed...hopefully, the demographics will diversify over time, and the retail scene will follow and become established, and that some of the buildings themselves are versatile enough that all those random urban presences (that aren't condos, Starbucks, and software companies) can start popping up. Urbantopia? We'll see...

 

[canarob]

Great piece, Sean!

Which of the old downtowns are you going to explore? I live near Main Street Markham and the area seems to be picking up retail and restaurant-wise. Some old plazas are being torn down and replaced retail that's being built right to the sidewalk. The architecture is historicist crap, but it will certainly be better than what's there.

This is an example from near the corner of Highway 7 and Main Street.

http://www.markham.ca/markham/ccbs/indexfile/Agendas/2008/Development%20Services/pl080219/main%20and%20markham.PDF

EDIT: Just saw your other post on spacing. re: development, the above project and another on Highway 7 just east of Main Street are both under demolition/construction.