Rocco Rossi wants subways too!

[Fresh Start]

Oh and the EA for Sheppard East LRT only took just months to complete, the Province wants RHC extension but can't get it approved until a DRL is started, and funding for rapid transit expansion in Toronto is already in place. We're just squandering it on the wrong priorities.

 

[gweed123]

Oh and the EA for Sheppard East LRT only took just months to complete, the Province wants RHC extension but can't get it approved until a DRL is started, and funding for rapid transit expansion in Toronto is already in place. We're just squandering it on the wrong priorities.

The SELRT EA at first was not even passed. They had to chop some parts out of it, to create an abbreviated EA, for it to even meet the standards. If the EA can't even be passed in its original form, that should tell you something about the project.

 

[nfitz]

The SELRT EA at first was not even passed. They had to chop some parts out of it, to create an abbreviated EA, for it to even meet the standards. If the EA can't even be passed in its original form, that should tell you something about the project.

What do you mean passed? As far as I recall the MOE approved the Sheppard East EA the first time it was submitted.

 

[uptownto]

Rossi put out a press release today where he comes up with a plan to use GO rail as a stand in for DRL without an extra fare as I understand it.
http://roccorossi.com/releases/statement-rocco-rossi-on-improving-transit-now/

Excerpt:
"There are many people who want to see two new downtown subway lines – they call them “relief” subway lines – built at a high cost to take pressure off the Yonge and University lines.
That’s not doable right away.
But there is another more economical, more immediate solution right under our noses.
That is why I am announcing today that as mayor I will make it possible for commuters to ride the GO train one stop out from Union Station in either direction during rush hour for the price of a TTC ticket.
That means taking a GO train from Union Station to Main Street in the East, and Dundas West station in the west.
This will take pressure off the Yonge and University lines as commuters will then be able to get back on the TTC at Main or Dundas West and finish their journey to Scarborough or Etobicoke."

I'm not really familiar with either Dundas West/Bloor or Main/Danforth, but I imagine they are not connected well to get from GO station to subway, perhaps this could be improved. Do you guys think this could be effective in relieving pressure on Yonge/Bloor? What if they expanded this idea to include Oriole (relief for Yonge), or Exhibition (relief for east/west street cars)?

 

[rbt]

I'm not really familiar with either Dundas West/Bloor or Main/Danforth, but I imagine they are not connected well to get from GO station to subway, perhaps this could be improved. Do you guys think this could be effective in relieving pressure on Yonge/Bloor? What if they expanded this idea to include Oriole (relief for Yonge), or Exhibition (relief for east/west street cars)?

It is a reasonable thing to do but would require a substantial investment. He would need to add a minimum of one train every 2 minutes going through union station during rush hour. I don't believe this will be technically possible until the new signaling system is in place around 2014, and GO already has plans for much of that capacity without any additional proposals.

If there is no intention of increasing GO capacity for this plan, strictly to subsidize a single trip; then well under 1% of the current subway ridership will be able to move to GO during AM or PM peak periods.

It's a bit like saying you will relieve Highway 401 congestion by widening Highway 7 by 3 more lanes in each direction. GO Transit isn't even under high jurisdiction and I highly doubt they were consulted as they would love to run additional trains. He would get far more by promising the 7th car addition to Yonge trains.

 

[kettal]

It is a reasonable thing to do but would require a substantial investment. He would need to add a minimum of one train every 2 minutes going through union station during rush hour. I don't believe this will be technically possible until the new signaling system is in place around 2014, and GO already has plans for much of that capacity without any additional proposals.

Signalling is the least of our worries. How could union station handle trains coming from all directions every 2 minutes?

 

[Mapleson]

Union Station train shed current has 13 tracks with 3 existing tracks. Assuming a disembark time of 90 seconds and train departure time of 70 seconds, 12 trains, one arriving every 10 seconds, over 2 minute period could be serviced or 360 trains an hour. 12-car consists with 136 seats means a peak of 587,520 passengers per hour. However, you need the signals, etc. to get there. Beyond squeezing headways though, you either need to build a grade-seperated corridor for new platforms or look to station elsewhere.

Supplimenting the cost of a GO ticket with city funds seems like a good way to let spending get more out of control. And isn't selling an asset to pay off debt, then using money meant to pay the debt to pay for subways/railroads the same as just selling Toronto Hydro to pay for part of TransitCity+? Why not do something like an IPO rather than selling the wholesale? If it's not supplimenting the cost, it's all political hot air.

The big thing about transit investment at this point is that it's more of "well, we need that too" than "we can do this instead".

 

[TOareaFan]

Union Station train shed current has 13 tracks with 3 existing tracks. Assuming a disembark time of 90 seconds and train departure time of 70 seconds, 12 trains, one arriving every 10 seconds, over 2 minute period could be serviced or 360 trains an hour. 12-car consists with 136 seats means a peak of 587,520 passengers per hour. However, you need the signals, etc. to get there. Beyond squeezing headways though, you either need to build a grade-seperated corridor for new platforms or look to station elsewhere.

Supplimenting the cost of a GO ticket with city funds seems like a good way to let spending get more out of control. And isn't selling an asset to pay off debt, then using money meant to pay the debt to pay for subways/railroads the same as just selling Toronto Hydro to pay for part of TransitCity+? Why not do something like an IPO rather than selling the wholesale? If it's not supplimenting the cost, it's all political hot air.

The big thing about transit investment at this point is that it's more of "well, we need that too" than "we can do this instead".

An IPO is a sale. It is the process of taking a private company and selling it, all or part, to the public markets.

 

[rbt]

Signalling is the least of our worries. How could union station handle trains coming from all directions every 2 minutes?

Not all routes. Relieving Yonge/Bloor only really requires 2 routes run that frequency (Lincolnville and Georgetown?); and 5 minute frequencies is enough for 10,000 pph per route which would make a substantial difference to Bloor Yonge.

Loading/unloading the train shouldn't be an issue but getting passengers off the platform could be. Luckily, there is enough space for 24 car long platforms.

If you create a Platform 4 East and Platform 4 West with separate sets of stairs, elevators and a wall between them; then you get 10 minute departures from each platform area (5 minutes per track) which should allow lots of time for people to get out.

Of course, Bloor/Danforth connections would need a substantial rebuild to handle any reasonable capacity (~800 persons arriving every 5 minutes)


I still don't see how it could be practical as anything more than an temporary stop-gap due to new induced demand but it can be done. In addition to the DRL on a northern (Queen) alignment it could be quite good.

Also, with both Union station and the Georgetown corridor under construction, capacity will actually be reduced in the short-term making it pretty much impossible before 2015.

 

[Mapleson]

An IPO is a sale. It is the process of taking a private company and selling it, all or part, to the public markets.

I said like an IPO. A DPO, an APO, or a PIPE are all equally acceptable public offerings, but those terms are more obscure.

Exactly, selling a minority share of Toronto Hydro to Toronto Hydro customers gives the City more leverage while mantaining the strategic investment goals (e.g., lower electricity prices). Privatizing Toronto Hydro means finding someone willing to operate the business not just underwrite it.

The difference is who gets the profits. Look at the UK and privatization under Margrette Thather. Assets were given to the private sector for a fraction of their strategic value. These assets were sold off for a profit, not by the government, and 10-20 years later public subsidies paid to re-aquire some for these private companies.

Look at CN. Bear Stearns underwrote the stock for $9 per share. It peaked at $97 and closed at $63 on the opening day of trading. Approximately $30 million was raised for public funds. Approximately, $180 million was pocketed by Bear Stearns.

 

[Electrify]

Whether you agree with Rossi's idea, it does bring up something: the lack of integration between the TTC and GO Transit is deplorable! With most GTA transit systems, GO stations are transit hubs where buses will pull in and are scheduled to hold for connections. With the exception of Rouge Hill and Long Branch, no TTC services pull directly into the stations, let alone hold for connections.

York University GO station might be the worst: There is no parking at this station, so driving to it is not an option. The YRT 3B Thornhill-York U branch offers excellent local service to the Thornhill area, and detours to the York University GO station to connect with the train before heading off to the university. Meanwhile, to get there by TTC you either:

a)take the 60 Steeles West bus to Petrolia and connect to a 41B Keele bus and take it to Wildcat Rd. From there, it is a 300m in (the YRT bus pulls directly in front of the entrance). Also worth noting that the Keele bus only operates one-way through this loop, so it is a 800m walk back to Steeles Ave on the return trip.

b)Take the 41B bus north through York University, along Steeles, and back down to Wildcat Rd. From here it is a 300m walk.

For the record, this station is located in the City of Toronto. This lack of coordination is a shame since in many cases, GO would be more beneficial to the commuter. Let's compare travel times:

GO Kipling to Union: 20 minutes
TTC Kipling to Union: 36 minutes

GO Bloor to Union: 15 minutes
TTC Dundas West to Union: 23 minutes

GO Oriole to Union: 28 minutes
TTC Leslie to Union: 39 minutes

GO Danforth to Union: 14 minutes
TTC Main St to Union: 27 minutes

GO Kennedy to Union: 19 minutes
TTC Kennedy to Union: 36 minutes

While walking between TTC and GO may reduce some of the time savings, it should still be more than acceptable to act as a relief route.

 

[ssiguy2]

Unless the GO trains will be running every 2 to 3 minutes then it's useless. A design by another person who knows nothing about transit.
Toronto should be running it's own trains on all rail routes in the city. They ca very easily be timed to not interfere with GO trains which would have far fewer stops than the 1 to 2 km stops for TTC rail. They could use regular LRT/CTrain or OTrain cars to start. If it's local TTC service use regular trains not the double decker monsters. They create a DRL under Queen for downtown and would avoid any problems with GO/VIA trains at Union. The TTC could use every rail route in the city {some of which GO doesn't even use} and where needed create 4th rail tracks to avoid any GO/TTC train congestion. It would be a fraction of the cost of current transit expansion plans. They could also use hydro corridors.
TTC is bissare in that it is a large system that uses zero amount of it's massive rail network for the TTC. It's a resource waiting to be used.
BTW, comparing Madrid to Toronto is a true insult to our Spanish friends. Toronto's subway system is mickey mouse compared to Madrid's. It's like comparing a Chevy Chevette to a Porche. Now, however, he is choosing a 'bold" strategy of building a whopping 2km of subway per year! Toronto MUST have. at a bare minimum, another 100km of mass/rapid transit in 20 years to remain competitive and ensure quality of life.

 

[Fresh Start]

York U GO Station won't even exist in a few years. The TTC represents Toronto residents and their interests, not the 905, and as such it must figure that people from within Toronto wouldn't be taking a GO train from Union to the middle of nowhere to then transfer onto a bus to get to class, particularly when there's a far more frequent subway + busway system already in place. The plan's to make a direct subway/rail connection at Sheppard West.

 

[rbt]

They ca very easily be timed to not interfere with GO trains which would have far fewer stops than the 1 to 2 km stops for TTC rail. They could use regular LRT/CTrain or OTrain cars to start.

Are you implying that OTrain cars can share track through the day with GO Trains?

 

[Justin10000]

I believe he is. Why did no one think of this before?? It's so easy!

*sarcasm*