Rob Ford's Toronto

[MetroMan]

If the garbage are not picked up, roads are not well kept and traffic light bulbs are not replaced, I am afraid that culture and arts are not going to help us. When were the last time you heard about a major company moving to a city for its culture and arts?

I'm sorry if i offend you, but you are extremely short sighted. It's myopic to not see the benefits of the arts in the big picture. Culture & arts encourage people to spend money > money spent creates jobs > jobs enable people to spend... A healthy economy and a good quality of life attracts big and small businesses to locate in Toronto.

On your first point: who says you can only either have the garbage picked up and roads maintained OR have a fun and culturally rich city? If Rob Ford thinks we can only have one or the other, not both, he's not up to the job of running a big city, let alone the largest in Canada. If that's the case, then again, he should run for Mayor of Millington, ON.

 

[spider]

The number of hours overall and number of continuous hours an operator can work are governed by provincial legislation. We can't make a driver drive 9 hours instead of 8 for example.

Nurses at the Toronto General Hospital (and maybe others) are working a 3 day week of 12 hours per day, Bell Canada outside workers were working 4, 10 hour days 40 years ago. I understand that Westjet Pilots and Attendents sweep out the plane between flights.

Management and the Unions should be issued calendars, this is 2010 not 1910.

 

[Asterix]

Nurses at the Toronto General Hospital (and maybe others) are working a 3 day week of 12 hours per day, Bell Canada outside workers were working 4, 10 hour days 40 years ago. I understand that Westjet Pilots and Attendents sweep out the plane between flights.

Management and the Unions should be issued calendars, this is 2010 not 1910.

I can't speak to what the exact legislative limits are, but I highly suspect the law does not allow bus drivers to work 12 hour shifts, even if you could get the union to agree to it.

Does it really make economic sense to pay someone a pilot's salary (or driver's salary) to sweep out a plane (or bus) when you could pay a cleaner a lot less?

 

[nfitz]

If the garbage are not picked up, roads are not well kept and traffic light bulbs are not replaced, I am afraid that culture and arts are not going to help us.

Where isn't garbage picked up? I can't remember the last time mine was not picked up ... well before the strike. And I haven't seen a traffic light that was partially-out for years. Many long-standing bad roads have been redone - seems far better than many Quebec and US cities.

Perhaps you live in one of those areas where they contract out garbage pick-up? Etobicoke? A warning for the rest of us, I guess.

 

[adma]

Clearly with that, we have established that you equate successes with big and shiny.

Well, aren't Rob Ford supporters like that? Y'know, once they win the lottery they'll build some grotesque eleventy jillion dollar McMansion for themselves...

 

[archanfel]

As reasonable as anything else to come out of his mouth.



The garbage IS being picked up, the roads are being rebuilt at an astounding rate and the traffic lights are all LEDs now anyways. Toronto's essential services are running just fine. The problem is that updating our often neglected infrastructure requires pouring "gravy" on it. Why are water rates going up? To pay for fixing pipes that are in many cases half a century beyond their design life. Gravy. Fordites don't get that.

The companies might not move for culture and arts directly, but there is a very strong correlation between a city's ability to attract talented workers and the prosperity of the companies that cannot be overlooked. You could turn Toronto into Mississauga, the civic side of things would run just fine and the young families would be happy, but do you honestly think that if Toronto beecame a giant Mississauga it would still attract a large inflow of young, talented people from across the country? Of course not. It becomes Edmonton. Decent enough, but nobody with a choice really wants to actually live there.

If I am not mistaken, Alberta has been growing much faster and attracting far more talents than Ontario despite the terrible weather. And I am not sure companies are terribly interested in the so called "talents" or they would have funded them themselves.

 

[archanfel]

I can't speak to what the exact legislative limits are, but I highly suspect the law does not allow bus drivers to work 12 hour shifts, even if you could get the union to agree to it.

Does it really make economic sense to pay someone a pilot's salary (or driver's salary) to sweep out a plane (or bus) when you could pay a cleaner a lot less?

Ah, people who are used to unions. Who said we have to pay them? Private companies have been cutting overtime pays for ages. And I wonder how much DC pension plan is going to save us. I guess all these are unthinkable in the public sector.

 

[archanfel]

Which would entail overhauling the union contract. Sure, it might make sense to cut pay, but it certainly isn't going to happen by some mayor arbitrarily dictating it. How much of a fight do you think patrons are willing to put up with before they demand the province legislate them back to work and impose arbitration (not too likely to end up reducing current pay levels)?

Are yes, the unions. They are the root of all problems, aren't they? The whole point of having Rob Ford is to try to crash them, isn't it? Chances are he will fail, but somebody got to try because what we have is not sustainable. Thatcher managed to do it, didn't she?

 

[mangasparky]

This thread about Rob Ford is turning out to be almost as funny as the G20 government conspiracy thread. Wait! There has got to be a Rob Ford/G20/Margaret Thatcher connection in there somewhere. Maybe Rocco can tunnel up a billion so Smitherman can e-figure out a way to get to the bottom of this.

 

[archanfel]

This thread about Rob Ford is turning out to be almost as funny as the G20 government conspiracy thread. Wait! There has got to be a Rob Ford/G20/Margaret Thatcher connection in there somewhere. Maybe Rocco can tunnel up a billion so Smitherman can e-figure out a way to get to the bottom of this.

Even Rob Ford is not about Rob Ford. Let's face it, the guy isn't exactly charming. It's about rampant wastes, misplaced priorities and unions sucking us dry. Rob Ford is simply the face of the anger towards all that. True, not a pretty face, but it just shows how fed up people are.

 

[Asterix]

Ah, people who are used to unions. Who said we have to pay them? Private companies have been cutting overtime pays for ages. And I wonder how much DC pension plan is going to save us. I guess all these are unthinkable in the public sector.

I'm not saying the union is idyllic. In many cases unions have outlived their purpose or have too much power and/or are overpaid.

The point is that when it comes to the TTC, it is not just a simple matter of a mayor deciding he's going to slash the workforce and/or salaries.

They've got a legal contract so you can't do much until that comes up for renewal.

Try and slash and burn your way through it and the union is going to strike.

Given how many people had conniptions when they took an extra hour or two to get home when the Yonge line had to shut down, how long do you think the city populace would last before a lot of pressure is exerted on the province to legislate 'em back to work?

How much damage to the city economy in millions of dollars would a fiscally responsible mayor Ford allow to happen in order to bust the TTC union?

Unless the union was asking for completely pie-in-the-sky demands, what do you think the chances are that a provincially appointed arbitrator would side with "cut them all" mayor Ford's offer versus what the union presented?

It's nice to fantasize about saving the city budget by hacking away at everything with a rusty scythe, but a little reality is needed if you want to have a hope in h**l of achieving much of that goal.

 

[mangasparky]

I'm not sure how a union or it's membership can be to blame for any cost issues that the city is going through. If the city doesn't like the negotiated contract, then they shouldn't sign it.

 

[js97]

^^ Agreed.
At the end of the day, it really is how the union has been managed, or mismanaged the last seven years.

When your chair is a well known union puppet, and the entire board consists of archeologists, theologists, sociologists - non qualified enough to run a donut shop - never mind the largest public transit system in the country, that's where the problem really stems.

Miller appointing a 28 year old kid with NO business OR education experience to chair it reveals the lack of judgement, or blatant favouritism that was dealt. More importantly, the absolute lack of consideration for the system or the city, but I digress.

Sweeping change on how the city manage's itself and does business is needed.

Unions are a bunch of grunts that will take advantage of the SYSTEM if allowed.

 

[GraphicMatt]

Don't act like this is something that just happened in the last 7 years. Be real.

 

[archanfel]

I'm not saying the union is idyllic. In many cases unions have outlived their purpose or have too much power and/or are overpaid.

The point is that when it comes to the TTC, it is not just a simple matter of a mayor deciding he's going to slash the workforce and/or salaries.

They've got a legal contract so you can't do much until that comes up for renewal.

Try and slash and burn your way through it and the union is going to strike.

Given how many people had conniptions when they took an extra hour or two to get home when the Yonge line had to shut down, how long do you think the city populace would last before a lot of pressure is exerted on the province to legislate 'em back to work?

How much damage to the city economy in millions of dollars would a fiscally responsible mayor Ford allow to happen in order to bust the TTC union?

Unless the union was asking for completely pie-in-the-sky demands, what do you think the chances are that a provincially appointed arbitrator would side with "cut them all" mayor Ford's offer versus what the union presented?

It's nice to fantasize about saving the city budget by hacking away at everything with a rusty scythe, but a little reality is needed if you want to have a hope in h**l of achieving much of that goal.

What do you propose then? We just keep on feeding them? Yes, the war with the union will be difficult, but it's the only way out. The province is changing guard too, if I were the union, I wouldn't bet on a sympathizing arbitrator.