Rob Ford's Toronto

[jje1000]

The discussion has gotten a bit out of hand and away from my original post. I was originally responding to someone who said the Star bungled the crack scandal. My point was that they have lost a lot of credibility in many Torontonian's eyes due to their past conduct and that the crack allegations would have had a much greater impact if people actually still trusted the Star. My point was essentially that, because of how the Star has behaved, something which probably could have ended Ford's career has barely fazed him.

Your point is that that because 40% didn't believe that the video was real that it was all because of the Star's over-reporting of Ford. My point is that it was not necessarily the Star's reporting on Ford and their "loss of credibility" (everything that Ford claims should be taken with a spoonful of salt) that allowed him to get scoot-free, but that they simply lacked the evidence needed to nail him.

Conversely, your point would have been true if the Star had the evidence and people still didn't believe.

 

[RC8]

The story was broken by Gawker anyway, and echoed by every major local and international news source.

If people concluded it was all a conspiracy then that's just down to people's faulty reasoning and lack of education, not The Star's ethics. There were pictures of Ford with several people accused of dealing crack in front of a crack house where his previously convicted cocaine-smuggling friends live, and numerous sources who came forward to say that the video was real and that Ford had indeed been smoking crack cocaine. He lost a big chunk of his own staff as a result.

His 'base' overlooked his DUI, his harassing of innocent people at a Hockey game, etc. before the election, and he blatantly lied about those things too! We got to the point 2 months ago of having the Sun posting stories about how mayor Ford needed to seek help.

If people don't believe there was anything to these 'allegations', that has nothing to do with The Star's reputation, and everything to do with the complete lack of engagement and/or reasoning skills of a large percentage of the electorate.

 

[Lansdude]

The story was broken by Gawker anyway, and echoed by every major local and international news source.

If people concluded it was all a conspiracy then that's just down to people's faulty reasoning and lack of education, not The Star's ethics. There were pictures of Ford with several people accused of dealing crack in front of a crack house where his previously convicted cocaine-smuggling friends live, and numerous sources who came forward to say that the video was real and that Ford had indeed been smoking crack cocaine. He lost a big chunk of his own staff as a result.

His 'base' overlooked his DUI, his harassing of innocent people at a Hockey game, etc. before the election, and he blatantly lied about those things too! We got to the point 2 months ago of having the Sun posting stories about how mayor Ford needed to seek help.

If people don't believe there was anything to these 'allegations', that has nothing to do with The Star's reputation, and everything to do with the complete lack of engagement and/or reasoning skills of a large percentage of the electorate.

Pretty much this. The fact that a main source was The Star provided an easy post hoc rationalization for people who didn't want to accept that they were taken in by this incompetent. Dismissing The Star is a pretty transparent ploy. I have no doubt people actually convinced themselves that's how they arrived at their position, but that's a marker of their stupidity and dishonesty, not The Star's conduct.

 

[nfitz]

Rather then actually address any of the issues I raised, you're trying to instead turn the focus onto Ford.

That's a bit rich coming from someone who has dodged every question I've raised.

 

[LowPolygon]

That's a bit rich coming from someone who has dodged every question I've raised.

+1

 

[LowPolygon]

Pretty much this. The fact that a main source was The Star provided an easy post hoc rationalization for people who didn't want to accept that they were taken in by this incompetent. Dismissing The Star is a pretty transparent ploy. I have no doubt people actually convinced themselves that's how they arrived at their position, but that's a marker of their stupidity and dishonesty, not The Star's conduct.

yes its a ploy.

and its because they are defending the indefensible.

don't forget, they are supporting a PUBLIC OFFICIAL who is a KNOWN USER of CRACK COCAINE.

and anyone who continues to support or defend this person, now that the TRUTH is out, is making an ass of themselves.

its really just a matter of intelligence and decency at this point, because any rational, intelligent and decent person would consider the ABUSE of CRACK COCAINE to be a total deal-breaker in a politician, no matter what the reality of their politics might be.

 

[James_D]

I'd argue that he was indefensible well before the crack revelation. He's demonstrated vocal contempt for a majority of the citizens he is supposed to represent. He's divisive, petulant, spiteful and a proven prevaricator. He literally loathes an entire portion of the electorate. He's a lying hypocrite with no plan or vision beyond his pandering populist sloganeering. The sad part is all he has to do is piss off the chimera of downtown latte-sipping lefties and that's good enough for his angry base with a giant chip on their shoulder.

From the radio bully pulpit:

“Those are our type of people, Rob. The hard-working, blue-collar folks that we absolutely love. You know folks, what this comes down to is the social elites, the establishment that have run this city for years, their hands have been pulled out of the cookie jar and they don’t like it. And I always tell everyone that the average folks, like yourself Rob, or the people who were at that BBQ, there’s more of us than there are of them.”

That's douggie speaking and robbie agreeing. It's sickening.

Further, on the same radio show -- where only nuthuggers are permitted to speak -- they told at least three verifiable lies that affect the future of the city.

 

[JWBF]

Cowboy Logic

"When all around you are using common sense, fill the gap. Use UNCOMMON sense."

hxxp://books.google.ca/books/about/Cowboy_logic.html?id=YpsWVlKRgDIC&redir_esc=y

 

[LowPolygon]

I'd argue that he was indefensible well before the crack revelation. He's demonstrated vocal contempt for a majority of the citizens he is supposed to represent. He's divisive, petulant, spiteful and a proven prevaricator. He literally loathes an entire portion of the electorate. He's a lying hypocrite with no plan or vision beyond his pandering populist sloganeering. The sad part is all he has to do is piss off the chimera of downtown latte-sipping lefties and that's good enough for his angry base with a giant chip on their shoulder.

From the radio bully pulpit:

“Those are our type of people, Rob. The hard-working, blue-collar folks that we absolutely love. You know folks, what this comes down to is the social elites, the establishment that have run this city for years, their hands have been pulled out of the cookie jar and they don’t like it. And I always tell everyone that the average folks, like yourself Rob, or the people who were at that BBQ, there’s more of us than there are of them.â€

That's douggie speaking and robbie agreeing. It's sickening.

well about 20% of people in the GTA have less than a high school education, so that's more than half of Ford's support right there. add in the angry, bitter old suburban whites who used to know better, and the homophobes and you're probably up around 30%. pulling up the rear are the 'economic conservatives' who like to pretend they support Ford for 'rational reasons'. only their psychiatrists can really speak to what is going on here, but i suppose you could factor them in at around 5%.

 

[typezed]

whatever

I'd just like to point out that if the important aspect here is the reporting and not the behaviour, you're the guy who thought starving artists were making rubber Rob Ford masks and using CGI to produce fake videos, and you also had some asinine reasoning of which I can't quite remember the details when Ford was photographed reading behind the steering wheel, so your credibility among readers here is probably much less than 50%.

 

[CowboyLogic]

That's a bit rich coming from someone who has dodged every question I've raised.

I'd just like to say right off the top that this is bullshit. I've gone out of my way to respond to as many posts as I can, specifically ones in which I am proven wrong. This is just nonsense. Name anything you want me to answer or stay silent with your lies.

If people don't believe there was anything to these 'allegations', that has nothing to do with The Star's reputation, and everything to do with the complete lack of engagement and/or reasoning skills of a large percentage of the electorate.

Pretty much this. The fact that a main source was The Star provided an easy post hoc rationalization for people who didn't want to accept that they were taken in by this incompetent. Dismissing The Star is a pretty transparent ploy. I have no doubt people actually convinced themselves that's how they arrived at their position, but that's a marker of their stupidity and dishonesty, not The Star's conduct.

Think whatever you want, but I think you guys are in denial.

As I mentioned before, half the city doesn't believe the crack allegations. That's well above Ford's level of support, not to mention that a certain percentage of his supporters probably do believe the crack allegations (such as myself). The point being that at least a good chunk of people who don't support Ford don't believe the allegations either.

I know this from my own experience too, but since that was dismissed as completely outside the realm of reality, I'll refrain this time.

This isn't about Ford supporters rationalizing or pinning the blame on the Star. The numbers just don't add up. There are more people that don't believe the allegations than there are Ford supporters.

I sincerely thought you were referring to them publishing a video about it, exactly because that's the point I brought - people like you say there are so many examples of The Star publishing this sort of thing and never provide anything other than the only example there is.

Feel free to prove yourself correct on your claim that "they've published articles which mock him for his weight, TMZ-style videos of the Mayor in his personal life (like that KFC video)" by providing at least another video (as videos is in the plural form, it must mean at least more than one).

I provided plenty of examples of the Star's ethical misconduct. All of them have been ignored here and people instead have either piled on about the KFC video or changed the subject.

I've also provided examples of TMZ-style behavior by the Star, but apparently that isn't good enough either. We're getting down to new levels of being pedantic here. Give me a few days and I'll pull up a few examples of TMZ-style videos.

Your point is that that because 40% didn't believe that the video was real that it was all because of the Star's over-reporting of Ford. My point is that it was not necessarily the Star's reporting on Ford and their "loss of credibility" (everything that Ford claims should be taken with a spoonful of salt) that allowed him to get scoot-free, but that they simply lacked the evidence needed to nail him.

Conversely, your point would have been true if the Star had the evidence and people still didn't believe.

Fair enough. I disagree, but that's reasonable.

 

[nfitz]

I'd just like to say right off the top that this is bullshit.

I think you ignoring my questions to you is bullshit as well. Though generally one simply apologizes and moves on instead of having a hissy fit.

Name anything you want me to answer or stay silent with your lies.

What lies? You've ignored me asking questions. What's my lie? Simply because Rob Ford can attack people because he doesn't want to answer their questions, doesn't make it right.

Let's go back to the beginning then.

He's never said anything explicitly homophobic

You seem to be ignoring his comments about "traditional marriage" and his endorsement of the views of renowned bigot Wendell Brereton.

Perhaps you'd care to enlighten us with your previous board name?

Are you going to answer this time?

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

You're still employing the same fallacy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignoratio_elenchi.

I was discussing how the Star's conduct is unethical. You responded by saying that Ford is unethical and, now, that I'm hypocritical. Even if these things are true, you're changing the subject. They have no relevance as to whether or not the Star is ethical.

Well considering the thread is about Rob Ford and not the Star... I would say it has far more relevance for the reason below:

Nor am I being hypocritical in the slightest. I said that the Star's conduct has been unethical and that they've lost credibility in the eyes of many Torontonians. If I support an unethical (from your POV) individual, that doesn't contradict anything I've said. I never said people shouldn't support the Star because they're unethical (in fact, its the newspaper I read the most), I simply said they are unethical.

Nice try - ethics require analysis and judgement - it's not a "fact" as you made it out to be. It is the soundness and competency of that judgement I am questioning.

This thread is called "Mayor Rob Ford's Toronto," not "Mayor Rob Ford's ethics, behavior and effectiveness." The title of this thread indicates discussion of all events and topics related to Toronto under Ford. The biggest daily's coverage of the mayor certainly falls under that.

I am fairly sure that would be a post-hoc justification. The tread certainly wasn't called "Ethics of the Toronto Star" if you want to play the game of semantic accuracy. Besides, if one is going to turn their dieting into a PR exercise to the point of inviting the media to cover (let's put aside the ethics of that) - one better be expecting the media to want to find out why it was such an abject failure.

AoD

 

[dt_toronto_geek]

Is everyone set for a morning and afternoon of drama and theatrics at City Council over a Scarborough Subway? I can't wait to see how Ford sells it this time. My PVR is set to record the shenanigans from 9:30am.

 

[ColinZeal]

I've also provided examples of TMZ-style behavior by the Star, but apparently that isn't good enough either. We're getting down to new levels of being pedantic here. Give me a few days and I'll pull up a few examples of TMZ-style videos.

Great, I'll be waiting. Until then, what you said is a lie.

By the way, do you have any proof that they followed him to the cottage? I mean, other than Doug Ford's word, that is worth jack squat.