Roads: Traffic Signals

[W. K. Lis]

An interesting recent video out of the Netherlands about demand-actuated signals for bikes, cars, and buses...

1. No annoying verbage signs to explain that "this is a bicycle signal" or "this is a right turn signal". No need for signs written in other languages (IE. English or French), because there is no verbage signs written in Dutch
2. The bicycle traffic signals actually use a bicycle pictograph
3. There is a red arrow signal for those motor vehicles turning, again without the sign clutter
4. Like the countdown circle, without using numbers.

My guess as to why Ontario would not use these traffic control signals here in Ontario is because Ontario didn't create them. They'll need to "study" it first, which will mean 25 years before they appear here. (Sarcastic in the last sentence.)

 

[mdrejhon]

Someday, smart traffic lights would even better know what the demand is, of all modes at all times.

If there's 50 bikes at an intersection and only 10 cars, then by all means -- bike gets priority, an accelerated green.
Or if a full transit vehicle approaches -- then transit priority. The 15 cars can wait.
Kindergarten class waiting at intersection to cross? Clear the intersection and accelerate pedestrian signal. Everybody else can wait.

Now if it's late at night, roads are empty, and you're the only car -- by all means coast through the intersection happily, we'll guarantee you a green traffic light if nobody else is approaching the intersection at the time. All yours, baby!

(But warning: if the smart signal was a smartass signal -- it will turn into a flashing red the moment your car exceeded the speed limit by more than 5kph -- and take photo radar of you if you zoom through merrily at 30kph above.)

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

(But warning: if the smart signal was a smartass signal -- it will turn into a flashing red the moment your car exceeded the speed limit by more than 5kph -- and take photo radar of you if you zoom through merrily at 30kph above.)

An even smarter ass signal will take control of your smart vehicle the moment you violate that speed limit above x kph, lock all the doors and route it to the nearest pound/police station unless you authorize payment of fines through your built in smart device/neural implant.

The future is going to be glorious indeed. Not entirely sarcastic about that.

AoD

 

[muller877]

An even smarter ass signal will take control of your smart vehicle the moment you violate that speed limit above x kph, lock all the doors and route it to the nearest pound/police station unless you authorize payment of fines through your built in smart device/neural implant.

The future is going to be glorious indeed. Not entirely sarcastic about that.

AoD

And the same thing with bikes zooming through a stop sign or going over 20 on a mixed use trail. Happy times indeed

....1984

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

And the same thing with bikes zooming through a stop sign or going over 20 on a mixed use trail. Happy times indeed

....1984

Well, I would be quite happy to deal punishment of this sort to bikes in order to see complete compliance on the part of autos, so I am afraid you're talking to the wrong person if you think that I am going to have second thoughts by dragging that other mode in.

Anyways, what's exactly so big brother about it? You are operating a one tonne plus vehicle with the potential to kill (and in all likelihood, you aren't going to be one getting killed in the event of an accident involving pedestrians) - a monitoring system helping to ensure compliance at stop lights is the least one should expect.

AoD

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

On an interesting note:

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/06/video-when-it-ok-our-cars-kill-us

AoD

 

[reaperexpress]

An interesting recent video out of the Netherlands about demand-actuated signals for bikes, cars, and buses...

Fantastic video, and people should also read the associated blog post:
https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2016/06/21/traffic-lights-in-s-hertogenbosch-an-interview/

Someday, smart traffic lights would even better know what the demand is, of all modes at all times.

If there's 50 bikes at an intersection and only 10 cars, then by all means -- bike gets priority, an accelerated green.
Or if a full transit vehicle approaches -- then transit priority. The 15 cars can wait.
Kindergarten class waiting at intersection to cross? Clear the intersection and accelerate pedestrian signal. Everybody else can wait.

It's important to keep in mind that Toronto's signal timings are largely dictated by pedestrian crossing times. At downtown intersections especially, there is not much room for adjustment - the signal basically cycles as fast as it can without violating minimum pedestrian times, in order to keep pedestrian wait times low.

Where the fully-actuated (Dutch) design really starts to shine is suburban areas where there are few enough pedestrians that the lights can default to Don't Walk. Only then does a controller have enough flexibility to make adjustments to accommodate the individual users present in real time. It's worth noting that the Netherlands generally has lower pedestrian rates than Toronto - even for very short trips people ride their bikes. From a signal operations perspective that's really nice because a bicycle doesn't take much more time to cross the intersection than a car whereas a pedestrian requires a long clearance time.

Now if it's late at night, roads are empty, and you're the only car -- by all means coast through the intersection happily, we'll guarantee you a green traffic light if nobody else is approaching the intersection at the time. All yours, baby!

(But warning: if the smart signal was a smartass signal -- it will turn into a flashing red the moment your car exceeded the speed limit by more than 5kph -- and take photo radar of you if you zoom through merrily at 30kph above.)

In all seriousness, a similar technique is used in some places, including the Netherlands: the signal rests in red and only turns green when a car is approaching. If that car is going above the speed limit, it will get to the signal before it turns green, and will get stopped. If it is travelling at or below the speed limit, the light will change in time for it to pass through without stopping. Admittedly this technique is mostly used to improve signal responsiveness during low-traffic periods, but it does have the side effect of penalizing speeding.

 

[muller877]

It's important to keep in mind that Toronto's signal timings are largely dictated by pedestrian crossing times. At downtown intersections especially, there is not much room for adjustment - the signal basically cycles as fast as it can without violating minimum pedestrian times, in order to keep pedestrian wait times low.
.

There are traffic lights in other cities that have faster pedestrian signals. And if someone can't walk as fast they have to press the button for 3 seconds and the pedestrian signal will be extended for them (similar to pressing the button to get verbal crossing sounds)

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

There are traffic lights in other cities that have faster pedestrian signals. And if someone can't walk as fast they have to press the button for 3 seconds and the pedestrian signal will be extended for them (similar to pressing the button to get verbal crossing sounds)

Since people have a hard time figuring out they have to push the button on the new streetcars to open the doors I don't see any way they would make crossing the street more complicated. Also most crossings in the city the button actually doesn't do anything other than activate the audio for the blind. They are all on timers

 

[reaperexpress]

Since people have a hard time figuring out they have to push the button on the new streetcars to open the doors I don't see any way they would make crossing the street more complicated. Also most crossings in the city the button actually doesn't do anything other than activate the audio for the blind. They are all on timers

Yeah, and people can't even figure out they do need to press the button at some intersections. I was on St. Clair and there was a lady waiting to get off the streetcar island who waited through two full cycles (>3 min) before I pressed the button to get a walk light for her.

Admittedly this is mostly the fault of the signage: there is often no distinction between the buttons that only call the APS tones and the buttons you actually need to press in order to get a walk signal.

In Waterloo and some other regions there is a distinction:

This button only calls the APS tones:

This button actually calls the pedestrian phase:

This alternate design from Bay & Davenport in Toronto would better match the style of the APS-only button from Waterloo:

 

[W. K. Lis]

Why aren't there pedestrian buttons on the "safety" island? Because Toronto and Ontario does not believe in intelligent pedestrian traffic signals, I've seen people getting stuck on those islands and waiting for the kindness of others to press the button.

 

[reaperexpress]

Why aren't there pedestrian buttons on the "safety" island? Because Toronto and Ontario does not believe in intelligent pedestrian traffic signals, I've seen people getting stuck on those islands and waiting for the kindness of others to press the button.

All recent installations or upgrades of streetcar island platforms have buttons if they are needed to trigger a pedestrian phase.

I agree with most of your opinions, but when you draw completely unjustified conclusions such as that "Ontario does not believe in intelligent pedestrian traffic signals" it seriously undermines your credibility. I know you're reasonably well informed, but statements like that make you sound like a facts-be-damned ideological crusader.

If you actually want to improve the situation for previously underserved road users in Toronto, you first need to recognize that the people operating the transportation system are highly diverse and that many of them are just as passionate about improving the pedestrian signals as you are. Only by identifying the opportunities and supportive parties can you get change accomplished. Creating an "us" versus "them" standoff just burns bridges and accomplishes nothing other than to make everyone angry.

 

[W. K. Lis]

I should have clarified about the safety islands being non-right-of-way safety islands.

 

[BurlOak]

If I would have designed the old system, red and green would be reversed. If the system fails, gravity would lower the arm to be more or less vertical. It is safer to make vertical a stop and horizontal a go.

 

[Johnny Au]

In the early days of the railway, they used semaphore signals to indicate how trains should proceed or not. These days, they switched over to using traffic signals similar to what we have at street intersections.

That's fine, when the trains run on private right-of-ways, away from motor traffic. Not so fine where the signals could get mixed up.

Note how the position of the semaphore arm are similar to transit signals used in other counties.

There's also the Wigwag: