Haljackey
Active Member
...But but but if we had better driver training we may not get shows like Canada's Worst Driver!
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Roads: Ontario/GTA Highways Discussion
- Thread starter Haljackey
- Start date
...But but but if we had better driver training we may not get shows like Canada's Worst Driver!
Deadpool X
Senior Member
I am not confident that this would be the best approach. We already see a lot of drivers break rules and not get caught. Police should be catching them already and if they are not, then we need to think of alternatives. Making the highway design safer for dummies is a simpler approach. You just do it once and then forget about it vs enforcement which needs to happen continuously and consumes resources that could be used in fighting other crimes.
Normally people get ticketed on speeding the most which is not even the worst of the issues, just because it's easier to measure it and it's very objective. Speed alone is not a problem, unsafe driving is. That's why they don't have speed limits on some of the autobahns and they don't have higher accident rates on those roads vs speed enforced autobahns. A driver changing lanes multiple times at a speed of 100 is more dangerous than a driver cruising straight in the leftmost lane at 140. But guess who is more likely to get a ticket!
Northern Light
Superstar
There are a variety of reasons the enforcement component on unsafe driving has not been more effective and @lenaitch elaborated the impact of the courts.
The deployment of dashcams to all OPP (and Toronto Police cruisers) would go some considerable distance to address this problem and make enforcement more effective.
Given today's camera technology, its also possible (subject to legislative authority) to use highway camera systems and police helicopters to enforce on some of these. If we can fine for a red-light violation without knowing the driver, (red light camera) then we can do the same for a clearly unsafe lane change supported by video evidence. (though ideally, highway cameras/copters would prioritize on the ground response, allowing for driver identification and appropriate punishment.
I absolutely agree that design is preferable to enforcement. I think my originally suggested design (the un-ending auxiliary lane (you never run into a guardrail) is just that. I'm seeking a means to address what you identified as one potential problem in that that design choice does not resolve.
As someone whose spent time in Germany, I think you're missing a great deal of how that's country's auto culture works. Its traffic enforcement is rigorous. 'Following too closely' is a common ticket, as is inappropriate use of the passing lane, and they even ticket you for running out of gas on the highway, being stupid is an offense!
Its a very different driving culture, permissive on the one hand; but with clear, enforced rules on the other.
Equally, I would add, Germany is slowly applying speed limits to more and more of the Autobahn.
Woodbridge_Heights
Senior Member
This is very common on roadways that experience significant congestion, even on merging lanes you will see drivers slip into the merging lane and force themselves in at the merging point. Skipping past half a dozen to a dozen vehicles. So it's not just the merging vehicles that are the issue.
It's not illegal per se, but I think most people see it as bad form.
Many traffic laws aren't really enforced except when there is an accident or the are charged in addition to some other offense. There would probably be huge back lash if suddenly we started enforcing every traffic law on the books.
Trouble is, at least in Toronto, often the driver making multiple lane changes is also the one doing 140.
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ARG1
Senior Member
What I would actually argue is most places that have a stronger driving culture are places where driving isn't mandatory, and usually have strong rail networks that most people use to get around. In Canada, 90% of people are basically required to have a car, and when you have so many people out on the road, representing a strong sample size of the population, it doesn't take long before some rotten apples begin to normalize dangerous driving practices. This is before we get into practices such as having unreasonably strict standards such as 100km/h that are basically asking drivers to push to overton window for how much speeding is actually acceptable (hence why the whole "drive +15-25 over the speed limit" unspoken rule is in place). Anytime I drive on the 407 (at least within the ETR section, police are very ticket happy east of Brock Road), I don't think I have ever seen a police car drive slower than 130km/h Despite being designated at 100km/h.
So what you then have is a "De Facto" Code, which is what people do on road side, and a "De Jure" code, which is how people drive when taking their driver exam. This in turn makes it a lot more difficult to actually catch the bad drivers during the licencing phase because once they get their liscence and get on the road, how they drive doesn't match how they drove during their Driver Exam. Even in Central York Region, where the only readily available test site is at Newmarket - a notoriously difficult Exam Centre that will fail you for breathing at the wrong time, is still filled with bad drivers.
Undead
Senior Member
Isn't it billed as the easiest one? I breezed through all my tests up there.
turbanplanner
Active Member
The 401 in Toronto is literally the busiest stretch of the world on the planet. If you're going to run into a bad apple anywhere, it would be there.
Woodbridge_Heights
Senior Member
20 yrs ago when I was getting my license it was +10km/hr over the posted speed limit that was believed to be where the cops would leave you alone. Somehow this has crept up to +20 km/hr and even +30 km/hr over the limit.
It's one reason I won't support a move to 120 km/hr speed limits on our highways without a change in how speed limits are enforce and/or some modification to the actual laws on the books related to speeding. Under current circumstances, moving to 120 Km/hr limits I predict we would see speeders doing 140-160 km/hr, and I think that's simply unacceptable given our current infrastructure. Just like with High speed rail curves and gradients that were built with a design speed of 100-120 Km/hr (MTO tends to build in a 20% speed buffer in their road designs), that would not work at 140+ Km/Hr.
I'd want stricter speed enforcement should limits be raised, and possibly the law adjusted such that speeding is viewed as a percentage of the posted speed limit rather than a fixed number over. the example I've given is that doing 70 in a 40 zone is far more dangerous than doing 130 in a 100 zone despite both scenarios resulting in a charge of 30 km/hr over the limit.
We also need to get over the social view that speeding tickets are "revenue tools" for the police force. Yes the tickets bring in money, but the reality is that money is the single greatest motivator in the society we've created, it's both the carrot and the stick. And there really isn't any other option for punishment with these kinds of crimes because, obviously, no one's going to suggest prison time for them.
ARG1
Senior Member
I think we talked about this before but this isn't based on actual data but my experience and the experiences of others in my high school. Its not common to see people take their tests in Oshawa or Guelph to get easier instructors. Part of it might be superstition and nothing discounts someone just being lucky and getting either a chill proctor or getting a proctor whose shift and just wants to go home. From what I hear though, Downsview and Newmarket are considered to be the hardest Drive Tests in the GTHA, with the former having to deal with tests running on congested roadways.
ARG1
Senior Member
Part of the problem is that our highways are built to such high standards. I forget the exact number but they're generally designed for 140-150km/h speeds. As such you have a roadway where you want to drive faster, and can quite comfortably drive faster, but you can't because of a white metal sign with a number drawn on it. As such it incentivizes people to drive *just a little faster* to see how far they can get because they can reasonably drive far more comfortably at higher speeds. If your speed limit matches closer to the design speed, then this is less of a problem because drivers won't get the urge to push farther.
A personal anecdote of mine would be driving in more rural Massachusetts. From my understanding (and I could be wrong) is that in local roads, Massachusetts actually surveys the speed at which drivers drive in certain sections, and adjust the speed limit for that section. So, if all of a sudden you're entering a part of the road with sharper curves and more extreme hills, there would be a lower speed limit implemented, and shocker, I actually ended up driving at that speed because I realized that speeding was not a good idea, and I had no issue slowing down if I wasn't comfortable with a specific curve. That's what a speed limit should be, a Speed LIMIT, how fast you can reasonably travel on a roadway.
Agreed
innsertnamehere
Superstar
y'all have clearly never driven in much of Europe. Places like Italy have an extremely aggressive driving culture with rampant speeding from my experience. They also have higher speed limits for equivalent quality roads, too, so you end up with cars doing 100km/h down winding narrow roads.
The reality is that for much of the world doing 140km/h on a freeway is pretty normal. Most of Europe has 130km/h speed limits on their rural freeways with speeding still regularly happening too on top of that.
My experience driving in Europe and in the US has Ontario actually having one of the slowest driving cultures. Ontario probably has the lowest speed limits I've seen, especially before the 110 limits were introduced in a few places. Even with a larger speeding culture resulting from all these crazy low speed limits, drivers still drive on average quite slowly in Ontario compared to many places.
And this is only getting even slower too, with most municipalities dropping rural speed limits basically everywhere in the last few years too. Outside of the most major rural roads, most municipalities seem to be slapping 60 or even 50 limits on rural roads now, and even putting 60 or 70 limits on well-built rural roads with 100km/h design speeds.. It's crazy and it's just going to further cement speeding culture.
Much of Rural Ontario is increasingly having 60 limits on roads which in most of the world would be 80 or 90 limits. Freeways are generally posted at 100km/h where elsewhere they would be 110-130km/h. Then people wonder why "speeding" is so bad here?
I mean... 90km/h on a low traffic, dead-straight rural freeway.. Who looks at this and thinks this is reasonable?
I could have a lot of fun with this... Ontario:
Michigan (yes, this is MPH!)
Ireland..
France..
Spain..
The reality is that for much of the world doing 140km/h on a freeway is pretty normal. Most of Europe has 130km/h speed limits on their rural freeways with speeding still regularly happening too on top of that.
My experience driving in Europe and in the US has Ontario actually having one of the slowest driving cultures. Ontario probably has the lowest speed limits I've seen, especially before the 110 limits were introduced in a few places. Even with a larger speeding culture resulting from all these crazy low speed limits, drivers still drive on average quite slowly in Ontario compared to many places.
And this is only getting even slower too, with most municipalities dropping rural speed limits basically everywhere in the last few years too. Outside of the most major rural roads, most municipalities seem to be slapping 60 or even 50 limits on rural roads now, and even putting 60 or 70 limits on well-built rural roads with 100km/h design speeds.. It's crazy and it's just going to further cement speeding culture.
Much of Rural Ontario is increasingly having 60 limits on roads which in most of the world would be 80 or 90 limits. Freeways are generally posted at 100km/h where elsewhere they would be 110-130km/h. Then people wonder why "speeding" is so bad here?
I mean... 90km/h on a low traffic, dead-straight rural freeway.. Who looks at this and thinks this is reasonable?
I could have a lot of fun with this... Ontario:
Michigan (yes, this is MPH!)
Ireland..
France..
Spain..
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Undead
Senior Member
Interesting. My G2 was in the middle of the day on local roads; the G test was driving south one exit on the 404.
whydidimakethis
Active Member
No need to look at Europe, or even the USA, we have plenty of examples of "fast" limits in Canada outside of Ontario:Spain..
Alberta:
(With intersections):
BC:
Even Quebec (with at grade rail crossings):
innsertnamehere
Superstar
I mean all of Ontario isn't that offensive, some higher speed limits definitely exist in limited locations, but they are definitely not the norm.
This is much more so the typical Ontario speed limit... 8 lane expressway with a 70 limit on it!
Same road a little further down the line has a 60 limit in an elevated expressway.. fun! Definitely nobody speeds here..
This is much more so the typical Ontario speed limit... 8 lane expressway with a 70 limit on it!
Same road a little further down the line has a 60 limit in an elevated expressway.. fun! Definitely nobody speeds here..
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Deadpool X
Senior Member
We don't even need helicopters for this. Drones are much cheaper now and they can be used for enforcement. They will also be much more sneaky than a large police cruiser or helicopter.
Also, to your concern about running into guardrail, we do have wide shoulders so if you are not able to merge, you will end up in the shoulder. It happened with me once when I was merging from one highway to another and didn't notice the lane ending sign and there was an 18 wheeler just behind me in the driving lane. I had to slow down and merge in the shoulder and let the truck pass.
That's not true. When you are seeing bad apples, you are only seeing amongst 6-10 cars ahead of you. If you are driving in the express lanes, you can't see what's happening in collector lanes or what's happening in the counterflow lanes. You are as likely to experience bad apples on 401 as any other highway in GTA.
What's more interesting is that many of these roads have no or much narrower shoulders than 400 series highways and STILL have higher speed limits. That road in France with 130 limit has no left shoulders and that Irish road with 80 limit has no shoulders at all.
If these countries had built 400 series highways, they would have posted a speed limit of 160.