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Roads: Ontario/GTA Highways Discussion

MrsNesbitt said:
The public itself will see lower toll rates
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What? We would negotiate a cancellation fee based on 84 years of projected tolls (with the current year levels of toll rates and traffic as the base number before projecting forward increases)...pay out that money and then lower tolls?

In a province scrambling to find money to pay for infrastructure, going backwards and making existing infrastructure a drain on the provincial treasury seems an awfully strange way of doing that.

MrsNesbitt said:
and the province will have free reign to work on the 407 as they see fit, including the ability to (at some arbitrary future time-point) build a parallel highway that directly competes with it for traffic, if necessary for reasons of traffic congestion, which is of course forbidden under the current terms of the lease.
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How far away from the 407 does any new E-W highway have to be under the current agreement? If you were building a new E-W highway today where would you put it? Right beside it or a fair bit north?

MrsNesbitt said:
There would also be benefits which are less tangible and less easy to put in terms of round numbers, such as the lessening of gridlock in the rest of the region by the 407 becoming an integral part of a publicly-owned network of infrastructure instead of a premium service, and the benefits of setting the idea that it is detrimental to sell off public infrastructure to private business firmly into the mindset of the populace.
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The 407 is an integral part of the road network now.....are you suggesting the number of users today is insignificant? It is jammed during peak times. Yes it is less so during off peak but that is the public exercising pricing logic. "during peak it is worth paying for this road over the alternative....off peak, when the alternative is not as congested, it is less worth it". It just indicates that its capacity is less needed at off peak times.
 
TOareaFan said:
It may be hard for you to believe...but it is so. Think of the Hudson's Bay Company selling the leases to all those Zellers stores to Target. The buildings were/are owned by 3rd parties....but HBC had an exclusive right to operate in those stores under long term leases that were, for the most part, below current market rates. The owners of the stores gained nothing in that transaction but HBC was able to sell their rights to those leases to Target for the duration of the leases and realize a gain of over $2B.

A lease is a contract...it has a term....that term has to be honoured and you can't just arbitrarily cancel it and make up your own penalty and think that should be fine.
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Theoretically, that could be changed via changes to federal & provincial law. I'm not sure who it would fall under (feds? province? I want to say the former), but theoretically whoever it is could pass a law declaring the 407 an exception to the normal rules of property rights, and order the 407ETR to give it up for free to the MTO. Such a thing would violate NAFTA Chapter 11 but that too could be disavowed by the federal government. Even if it violates the constitution, the federal government could amend that. If the will was high enough, it could be done.

Of course anything that drastic would require a HUGE push from all directions to renationalize the 407. Things like what I just described really only happen in dictatorships.
 
there would be a whole ton of economic fallout from a move like that as it would involve some communist like government seizure of private property without payment, it would cut a lot of confidence out of investing in Canada (as we saw today with the Burger King / Tim Hortons deal).
 
The only way I could see a buyout of the 407 contract being feasible is if:

1) Ontario is no longer running a deficit.

2) Most of the Big Move has been implemented.

3) A major expenditure in widening a substantial stretch of a highway is required, or multiple expensive smaller highway projects that would be negated by diverting more traffic onto the 407.
 
the last one is the only way I see it happening, where other reasonable measures have been taken and the only way to solve congestion is to either perform an extremely expensive widening due to high expropriation costs or something and it is simply deemed easier to buy out the 407.

I don't see this happening to the 407 mainline, the only portion I could see it occur is the 407 west of the 403.
 
1overcosc said:
Theoretically, that could be changed via changes to federal & provincial law. I'm not sure who it would fall under (feds? province? I want to say the former), but theoretically whoever it is could pass a law declaring the 407 an exception to the normal rules of property rights, and order the 407ETR to give it up for free to the MTO. Such a thing would violate NAFTA Chapter 11 but that too could be disavowed by the federal government. Even if it violates the constitution, the federal government could amend that. If the will was high enough, it could be done.

Of course anything that drastic would require a HUGE push from all directions to renationalize the 407. Things like what I just described really only happen in dictatorships.
Click to expand...

Like I said earlier.....we do not currently have laws that allow governments to simply sieze assets.....yes we could create laws that allow that...we could as you say amend the constitution......we could break our trade agreements....we could do all of that.....before you do, give me a few months notice so that I can sell up and renew my other passport.
 
I missed getting this posted back on the 26th:

News Release
Improvements Begin on Highway 427

August 26, 2014

Ontario Government Creating Jobs, Building a Strong Economy

Ontario is widening a seven-kilometre stretch of Highway 427 from Campus Road-Fasken Drive to Steeles Avenue to improve traffic flow and safety in the Greater Toronto Area, while creating or sustaining 830 construction jobs.

The project includes:

Repairing, repaving and expanding the section of Highway 427 from five to eight lanes
Building one High Occupancy Vehicle (HOV) lane in each direction
Repairing eight bridges
Installing new high-mast lighting and median barriers
Construction is targeted for completion by fall 2017.

Improving highways, roads and bridges across the province is a key part of the government's economic plan to invest in people, create jobs, build modern infrastructure and support a dynamic and innovative business climate.


QUICK FACTS

The $83-million contract was awarded to Dufferin Construction of Oakville.
Ontario has 16,900 kilometres of highway and 2,800 bridges.
Ontario is investing $2.5 billion in road and bridge construction projects this year, creating or sustaining approximately 25,000 jobs.
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and here is today's…

News Release
Improvements Begin on Highway 410

September 9, 2014

Ontario Government Creating Jobs, Building a Strong Economy

Ontario is widening a 12-kilometre stretch of Highway 410 from south of Highway 401 to Queen Street, to improve traffic flow and safety in the Greater Toronto Area, while creating or sustaining more than 1,550 construction jobs.

The project includes:

Repairing, repaving and expanding the section of Highway 410 from six to 10 lanes
Building one general purpose lane and one High Occupancy Vehicle (HOV) lane in each direction
Repairing seven bridges
Constructing two new ramps at the highway 401/403/410 interchange
Opening two new carpool lots
Installing concrete median barriers and high-mast lighting
Construction is targeted for completion by fall 2018.

Improving highways, roads and bridges across the province is a key part of the government's economic plan to invest in people, create jobs, build modern infrastructure and support a dynamic and innovative business climate.

QUICK FACTS

The $156.7-million contract was awarded to Aecon Construction and Materials Limited.
Ontario has 16,900 kilometres of highway and 2,800 bridges.
Ontario is investing $2.5 billion in road and bridge construction projects this year, creating or sustaining approximately 25,000 jobs.
Click to expand...
 
Good to see that those long-missing 401 to 403 ramps will be built as part of the 410 construction.

Now if only they'd build the missing QEW to 403 ramps in Oakville.
 
When are they starting the new 401/403 ramps? I'd love to be able to go East on the 401 and then south/west on the 403
 
Translude15 said:
The original flyover ramps took ~2 years to build back in the late 80s so that might give us a rough estimation.
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The original ramps required large bridge structures. As far as I recall, and looking at Google Maps, there are no structures required for these 2 new ramps. The south to west one already has the existing entrance lane construction on the 401, and has the ramp itself already roughed in. And I thought they added an entrance lane to the east to south one during the recent work.

Though I still wouldn't be surprised if it takes ~2 years, given that the ramps are a very small part of a much bigger project.
 
ShonTron said:
I'd love to see access to the 410 from the westbound 401 express lanes. The merge before Dixie Road is not fun.
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I don't think there's any plans to do that. I think all that's on the books is the missing 401 to 403 connections.

I can't say I've ever merged from the express, to get to the 410, as I've either gone up the 410 from the west, or from the 427.

But I'm often in the 401 collectors heading west past the 410 (as one does coming up the 427), and I'm normally quite far left. Traffic usually seems to move okay here in AM rush (I'm normally heading the other way in PM rush, so I don't notice). How is it a problem?
 
Will the new HOV lanes being built on the 410 be connected to the HOV lanes on the 403? Would be nice to have a seamless HOV lane that goes all the way from Winston Churchill/403 to Queens St./410

nfitz said:
Now if only they'd build the missing QEW to 403 ramps in Oakville.
Click to expand...

They've talked about it, and have plans, but seems like there's no talks of beginning construction any time soon.

http://www.oakville.ca/residents/highway-403-QEW-improvements.html
 
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In other news, the 404 extension should be opening within the next few days, MTO has stated that it will open sometime this month.

Now if only they could build the Bradford Bypass.
 
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