innsertnamehere
Superstar
Difference is that unlike Quebec and NYDOT, MTO didn't let its bridge rot.
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Roads: Ontario/GTA Highways Discussion
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ShonTron
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Memories of last year's Interstate 5 bridge failure in Washington State:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-5_Skagit_River_Bridge_collapse
Just out of curiosity, was Mud Road designed to eventually become an extension of the Linc? It seems like it was built as a quasi-expressway, but it doesn't seem like there was much ROW room left for future interchanges and such. That would seem like an effective way to build a quasi-Mid Peninsula Highway.
dunkalunk
Senior Member
Hamilton will always be a slave to its Geography. Below the mountain, there aren't very many non-expensive options left to expand the road network. The only two I see are either somehow connecting up Burlington St to York Street near Dundurn Castle (probably requiring either a tunnel or extensive demolition) or extending Burlington Street across the bay to interchange with the QEW (requiring a longer 3km tunnel, half of which would be on the bottom of the bay).
According to places to grow, the ability to expand the QEW, and improve rail service on the rail corridor, there really shouldn't be any need to build a new highway on top of the escarpment either. The Red Hill Valley Parkway was a critical link that was required to avoid extension of the Linc further east.
The most cost-effective solution I see here is to slap variable tolls on both the Burlington Skyway and the Chedoke Expressway (The section of the 403 from the 407/QEW to the Linc) (also, I've never heard anyone call it this, even in Hamilton). The same logic applies to to applying variably-priced tolls on the Gardiner and DVP. It's charging a price based on demand for a limited resource in order to maintain that resource and provide funding for transit alternatives. In Hamilton's case, this means AD2W GO to James North, frequent service to Hunter Street, and the building of the Main and James LRTs. Perhaps this could also include the building of a new rail terminal in the vicinity of Cathedral Park.
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adma
Superstar
*And*, it was built properly and solidly in the first place--and was thoroughly rehabbed after Skyway II was opened...
dunkalunk
Senior Member
So, had a hopefully not too ridiculous idea about how to add some redundancy to the Hamilton road network. Build a tunnel under the Royal Botanical Gardens and Hamilton Harbour.
The tunnel would serve numerous functions including an alternate access to the mountain (there is currently excess capacity on the Claremont Access), an alternate route into Downtown, as well as an alternate crosstown route via Burlington St/Highway 6. The Hamilton Harbour section is on a sandbar and shallow enough it would be easy to build the entire thing precast close to the site. The more politically and technically difficult piece would be the at-grade section over Grindstone Creek given the tight spacing adjacent to the rail corridor, building a highway ROW in a flood plain (especially after last weekend's downpour) and almost-certain heavy environmental opposition. Regardless of this, I see another local connection across the harbour is justified, particularly if it allows you to more easily charge tolls on the surrounding road network.
The tunnel would serve numerous functions including an alternate access to the mountain (there is currently excess capacity on the Claremont Access), an alternate route into Downtown, as well as an alternate crosstown route via Burlington St/Highway 6. The Hamilton Harbour section is on a sandbar and shallow enough it would be easy to build the entire thing precast close to the site. The more politically and technically difficult piece would be the at-grade section over Grindstone Creek given the tight spacing adjacent to the rail corridor, building a highway ROW in a flood plain (especially after last weekend's downpour) and almost-certain heavy environmental opposition. Regardless of this, I see another local connection across the harbour is justified, particularly if it allows you to more easily charge tolls on the surrounding road network.
Interesting idea. Of course, the 403 east of that interchange would also need to be widened. If not, all you'd be doing is moving the choke point further east. That would also create a cascade and the need to reconfigure the Freeman Interchange to allow more QEW Toronto thru lanes off the 403. It would probably be best to extend the HOV lanes past Guelph Line to Highway 6N.
So in reality you'd probably be looking at a coordinated series of at least 3 projects in order to make this tunnel feasible. Now granted the two 'cascading' projects probably need to happen anyway.
ssiguy2
Senior Member
I am very much dating myself but I still think of the 403 Hamilton section as the Chedoke Expressway same as I think of the HWY 126 turn Highbury Ave in London as the Weinge Expressway. In the 80s when I last lived in fair Ontario, both roads had signs marking them as such. Hamilton got off easy as it was simply turned into the 403 but London had the Weinge downloaded to the city thanks to Harris.
Personally I think Hamilton has enough Highways and is one of the easiest cities to get around. I think in Southern Ontario the province should have 2 priorities...........bring the highway {8 or 7} between Kitchener and Guelph up to full freeway standards and creating a northern London freeway from Strathroy across northern London to the 403/Woodstock as the 402 was suppose to do in the first place.
People in Northern London now go via Stratford/Kitchener to get to Toronto because getting to the 401 is a painfully slow procedure and the and in rush hour you are already in Stratford before you even get to the 401. This and the fact that the 401 London/Woodstock stretch is very busy and the amount of transport traffic makes it a dangerous road and an northern end connector would relieve a lot of car and truck traffic from that busy stretch. Many don't realize that the 402 carries 80% of the traffic of what the 401 does west of London.
Personally I think Hamilton has enough Highways and is one of the easiest cities to get around. I think in Southern Ontario the province should have 2 priorities...........bring the highway {8 or 7} between Kitchener and Guelph up to full freeway standards and creating a northern London freeway from Strathroy across northern London to the 403/Woodstock as the 402 was suppose to do in the first place.
People in Northern London now go via Stratford/Kitchener to get to Toronto because getting to the 401 is a painfully slow procedure and the and in rush hour you are already in Stratford before you even get to the 401. This and the fact that the 401 London/Woodstock stretch is very busy and the amount of transport traffic makes it a dangerous road and an northern end connector would relieve a lot of car and truck traffic from that busy stretch. Many don't realize that the 402 carries 80% of the traffic of what the 401 does west of London.
BurlOak
Senior Member
I do not know why, but the download happened in 1991 - 4 years before Harris. MTO has downloaded many highways at various points in time, either because a new parallel highway was built, or the highway started to serve more of a local purpose and not regional.
http://www.thekingshighway.ca/Highway126.htm
innsertnamehere
Superstar
The first round of downloadibgs from Harris largely made sense too, it was the second round that screwed everything up. If they had been doing it properly in the dowbloadings and rationalisation of the provincial highway network they would have uploaded the DVP and Gardiner, not downloaded part of the QEW.
adma
Superstar
Actually, IIRC the Chedoke was *always* 403--it's just that the name vanished into the ether like Macdonald-Cartier for the 401...
innsertnamehere
Superstar
Anyone know when the southern highways plan will be released this year? It typically comes in June or july but its mid august and it still isn't here.. Maybe the election delayed it?
That's a worthy list. Personally, I would also add a 400-series Highway 6 from the new 400-series Highway 7 all the way down to the 403. KWCG and the western end of the GTHA are only going to become more interconnected with time, and Highway 6 between the 401 and 403 is ridiculously busy as it is. The Morriston by-pass, the new interchange between Highway 6N and 6S at the 401, and the grade-separations/interchanges on the Hanlon are all part of what I consider the first phase of that project.
PS: I think the Kitchener-Waterloo-Cambridge-Guelph area is going to need a new 'regional' name at some point in the near future, because they're slowly growing into one continuous urban area. The current alphabet soup of initials is a mouthful. I'm personally partial to "Grand River" or something along those lines, but that leaves out Guelph which isn't on the Grand. "Waterloo Region" is another option, but that would probably piss of Kitchener and Cambridge residents too much.
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dunkalunk
Senior Member
Your assessment of upgrading Highway 6 is definitely a valid one, especially because there are no good alternatives to Highway 6 when travelling between Waterloo/Wellington and the Niagara Region.
I'm still of two minds whether or not the full Highway 7N is even needed. Many of the problems with the existing highway could be cheaply solved with increased rail service and expansion of the existing rural 2 lane Highway 7 ROW up to four lanes. On the other hand, the Victoria St Bypass is definitely needed, as is the improvement to the existing interchange, and to a lesser extent the northern bypass of Woodlawn Rd. If you're going to build almost 3/4 of a grade-separated highway, why not build the entire thing?
RE
S; Waterloo Region really just needs to absorb Guelph/Eramosa/Puslinch at the Regional Municipality level. Erin would go to Halton, and the rest of Wellington would merge with Dufferin.In the meantime, the best name I've come across is Upper Grand.
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innsertnamehere
Superstar
A full 400 series highway 6 would destroy a lot of very sensitive environmental area. There is a reason MTO ruled it out in the Niagara study. Build the planned bypass on the northern and of it and the interchange at the intersection where the 400 series part ends, and its good to go.
In terms of new 400 series corridors, I don't see much need in southern ontario for anything beyond 7 to Perth and a 174 extension. Most of the stuff I would like to see done is upgrades to existing highways. 400 widening, QEW widening, 11 upgrade, 26 widening, 12 widening, 6 bypass to Guelph and Caledonia, 6 upgraded through Guelph, major HOV expansion, 6 lane 401 Windsor-Kingston, 3 widening to leamington, etc.
Northern Ontario is where I would like to see big expansion. 417 to deep river, 17 at 400 series standards from sault ste Marie to mattawa, super two between mattawa and deep river, etc.
In terms of new 400 series corridors, I don't see much need in southern ontario for anything beyond 7 to Perth and a 174 extension. Most of the stuff I would like to see done is upgrades to existing highways. 400 widening, QEW widening, 11 upgrade, 26 widening, 12 widening, 6 bypass to Guelph and Caledonia, 6 upgraded through Guelph, major HOV expansion, 6 lane 401 Windsor-Kingston, 3 widening to leamington, etc.
Northern Ontario is where I would like to see big expansion. 417 to deep river, 17 at 400 series standards from sault ste Marie to mattawa, super two between mattawa and deep river, etc.
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