Roads: Ontario/GTA Highways Discussion

[Kitsune]

Wasn't the plan was to bypass it to the east cause there is too many properties along that last stretch? I guess it was too expensive either way or it runs into too much natural habitat. The is a long term plan to twin the entire Highway 17 from Echo Bay to North Bay. The entire southwest bypass will be twinned an upgraded to 400 standard freeway. Highway 69/400 will meet Highway 17 at a different location with a freeway-to-freeway interchange. I don't think the twinning will be done till the late-2020s. Once Highway 69 is done, MTO can divert their priority to Highway 17.

In the meanwhile, twinning between the Manitoba boarder to Kenora has been stalled for a decade now with federal funds. It seems to take a million years for anything to happen in Ontario. Quebec decided to finish off twinning the A85 which runs in similar terrain. They do however receive federal funding for it since it's an important part of the TCH. I'm not sure how much federal funds will be contributed to twinning Highway 17.

The proposed plan for Sudbury is to use the existing route, add one interchange and upgrade the 17 one. However the website (highway17sudburytomarkstay.ca) was taken down in April. And the latest provincial map http://files.news.ontario.ca.s3-web...ortheast_highways/Hwy69FourLaningJuly2016.pdf appears to show no plans at the time to do it.

 

[innsertnamehere]

I believe it is listed in the Northern Highways program as "beyond 2020" completion. This means it has funding, but is a while off still.

 

[innsertnamehere]

here is a video visualization of the highway:

 

[Steve X]

I believe it is listed in the Northern Highways program as "beyond 2020" completion. This means it has funding, but is a while off still.

Yeah, I believe it's funded unlike the SW Bypass. I doubt anything construction will start till the remaining sections of Highway 69 is well underway. With Ontario in a large hole and a change of government likely to happen, who knows if they will even be built in the next decade. Anything that's going to be tendered beyond 2018 is all up in the air. This includes all the light rail and RER projects.

 

[cplchanb]

With all the gridlock becoming more and more intense on the N/S direction highways (404, 427 etc) I am wondering if there has been any long term
plan to address this. One cannot simply just build subway lines and assume that drivers will jump to transit without an overwhelming incentive.
Is it technically feasible to bridge or tunnel an expressway straight from DVP/401 to the DT core?

 

[Kitsune]

Yeah, I believe it's funded unlike the SW Bypass. I doubt anything construction will start till the remaining sections of Highway 69 is well underway. With Ontario in a large hole and a change of government likely to happen, who knows if they will even be built in the next decade. Anything that's going to be tendered beyond 2018 is all up in the air. This includes all the light rail and RER projects.

The fact they abruptly shut the website down 6 months after the TESR for that section suggests it might have since been removed. We'll know once Northern Ontario highways 2016 is released.

 

[innsertnamehere]

pretty sure its out.

The websites usually get shut down a few months after completion of the studies.

cplchanb - luckily they are in the process of widening the 427 and 410. The 404 is set to get widened soon north of Highway 7 soon too.

 

[Steve X]

pretty sure its out.

The websites usually get shut down a few months after completion of the studies.

cplchanb - luckily they are in the process of widening the 427 and 410. The 404 is set to get widened soon north of Highway 7 soon too.

Also that 427 extension is suppose to start next year.

 

[Zach6668]

With all the gridlock becoming more and more intense on the N/S direction highways (404, 427 etc) I am wondering if there has been any long term
plan to address this. One cannot simply just build subway lines and assume that drivers will jump to transit without an overwhelming incentive.
Is it technically feasible to bridge or tunnel an expressway straight from DVP/401 to the DT core?

Technically feasible? Maybe, but it's an awful idea from a city building perspective. Adding more cars to the downtown core is the worst thing we could possibly do. The road networks downtown is likely at or over capacity as it is, and then you also need to significantly expand parking availability, which is not a good idea for a plethora of reasons.

 

[cplchanb]

Technically feasible? Maybe, but it's an awful idea from a city building perspective. Adding more cars to the downtown core is the worst thing we could possibly do. The road networks downtown is likely at or over capacity as it is, and then you also need to significantly expand parking availability, which is not a good idea for a plethora of reasons.

Im not sure the exponential increase of cars is preventable. Every year seems to be worse than the previous. Now even on Fridays theres usually a long jame at the 404/401 interchange The core is continually expanding and intensifying with more and more towers going up yearly. Perhaps mirroring London and adding a congestion tax for all plates not registered to the downtown core so at least they can
profit off of it. The only other method is to intensify other centres which they are trying to do in York Region. Not sure how long its going to take though and how successful it may be.

 

[Zach6668]

Im not sure the exponential increase of cars is preventable. Every year seems to be worse than the previous. Now even on Fridays theres usually a long jame at the 404/401 interchange The core is continually expanding and intensifying with more and more towers going up yearly. Perhaps mirroring London and adding a congestion tax for all plates not registered to the downtown core so at least they can
profit off of it. The only other method is to intensify other centres which they are trying to do in York Region. Not sure how long its going to take though and how successful it may be.

Of course it is preventable. There's an equilibrium level of congestion, where people are simply going to opt to not take the trip, or use a different mode, or hell, even relocate closer to their workplaces. There's only so much road capacity, and once it's full, that's it.

The city gains nothing by increasing road capacity because it's extraordinarily inefficient.

The goal should be to increase the mobility of people, not cars. That's why we need to get GO RER built ASAP, and the Relief Line up to Sheppard, and we need to improve east-west travel by giving King and/or Queen streetcars their own lanes and real signal priority. Our transit system capacity needs to increase much more than road capacity into downtown.

Those solutions move a lot more people than increasing road capacity could ever dream of, and that goes without mentioning all of the actual physical constraints to widening and adding new roads in and into downtown, and all of the negative effects this has on streetscapes, walkability, local economy, transit performance, pollution, parking garage needs, etc.

 

[cplchanb]

Of course it is preventable. There's an equilibrium level of congestion, where people are simply going to opt to not take the trip, or use a different mode, or hell, even relocate closer to their workplaces. There's only so much road capacity, and once it's full, that's it.

The city gains nothing by increasing road capacity because it's extraordinarily inefficient.

The goal should be to increase the mobility of people, not cars. That's why we need to get GO RER built ASAP, and the Relief Line up to Sheppard, and we need to improve east-west travel by giving King and/or Queen streetcars their own lanes and real signal priority. Our transit system capacity needs to increase much more than road capacity into downtown.

Those solutions move a lot more people than increasing road capacity could ever dream of, and that goes without mentioning all of the actual physical constraints to widening and adding new roads in and into downtown, and all of the negative effects this has on streetscapes, walkability, local economy, transit performance, pollution, parking garage needs, etc.

Sorry but youre living in Utopia. As much as I am all for RER and etc NA is all about car culture. Unless we do something drastic it cannot be prevented. Even with RER in place
I seriously doubt it will draw a significant amount of drivers off of the roads down to acceptable levels. One cannot simply assume that majority of drivers will magically jump onto transit and do nothing about it.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Sorry but youre living in Utopia. As much as I am all for RER and etc NA is all about car culture. Unless we do something drastic it cannot be prevented. Even with RER in place
I seriously doubt it will draw a significant amount of drivers off of the roads down to acceptable levels. One cannot simply assume that majority of drivers will magically jump onto transit and do nothing about it.

The trend is now towards banning cars in the city centres. It is happening. Some cities are in the planning stage. The GTA's RER and Transit City and the DRL are Toronto's small steps towards that.

 

[Zach6668]

Sorry but youre living in Utopia. As much as I am all for RER and etc NA is all about car culture. Unless we do something drastic it cannot be prevented. Even with RER in place
I seriously doubt it will draw a significant amount of drivers off of the roads down to acceptable levels. One cannot simply assume that majority of drivers will magically jump onto transit and do nothing about it.

It's not about getting current drivers to switch, it's about capturing future growth and making it transit-oriented, rather than car-oriented. Some of the new growth will drive, of course, but some of the current drivers will switch, too. Depends how convenient we make transit, relative to driving.

Cars in cities is a basic geometry problem. They take up space. Space is limited. Therefore there's a maximum capacity of cars. At some point, congestion will get so bad that instead of whining about it on the internet, drivers will just avoid driving at those times, so, like I said, there will be an equilibrium state of congestion. It's the same principle of induced demand. More people drive because widening a highway made it easier and faster to do so, to the point where there's just as much congestion as before.

 

[darth_freeman]

Also that 427 extension is suppose to start next year.

Construction will also start next year on Highway 400 - widening through Vaughan to add an HOV lane from Rutherford Road to King Road. So over the next few years lots of additional N-S capacity will be added which is sorely needed.

It's also very efficient in terms of cost. The Hwy 410 widening from south of Hwy 401 to Queen Street will cost something like $200M and will provide relief to hundreds of thousands in Brampton. Compared to $3B+ for one subway stop in Scarborough.

Technically feasible? Maybe, but it's an awful idea from a city building perspective. Adding more cars to the downtown core is the worst thing we could possibly do. The road networks downtown is likely at or over capacity as it is, and then you also need to significantly expand parking availability, which is not a good idea for a plethora of reasons.

Most commuters headed right downtown already take transit. Highways are for those who live/work in the suburbs and also heavy/long distance transportation.