Roads: Keep the Gardiner, fix it, or get rid of it? (2005-2014)

[Dandy Horse]

Im not campaigning, Im just saying what I believe to be the truth, so its OK. It is tragic that we have to lie to and dote on Scarborough like its a spoiled brat child instead of an active member of the Toronto household. Its even more sad that this has been going on for seventeen years or however long since amalgamation.

 

[Cityminded]

Are you suggesting that the data presented in the study are I accurate? And I'd so, what are the inaccuracies?

One popular ‘highlight’ from the report could be seen as misleading, especially if people are unaware of its underlying assumptions. It’s this one: ‘With removal of the Gardiner, auto travel times will increase by about 10 minutes’.

The report states that these traffic predictions are based on the year 2031, with the assumption that all of the following transit improvements will be in place:

1) A downtown relief subway line
2) New streetcar lines in the east bayfront and on Broadview
3) GO service improvements

The report indicates that the Gardiner east could be removed in about three years – say by 2018. Most of those transit improvements won’t be in place by then, and really none of them are guaranteed at this point, so the true impact on travel times seems more uncertain than the data presented in the report.

 

[innsertnamehere]

except for you know, the fact that the EA on this isn't even going to be finished until late 2015, then detailed design has to occur, etc. none of the plans made now aren't planned to happen until 2020. The gardiner will still be with us for at least another 6 years.

Other than the streetcar lines, there is a very real chance GO expansions and the DRL will occur, and by the time council votes on this (late april) we will likely know whether or not they will happen.

 

[Hipster Duck]

except for you know, the fact that the EA on this isn't even going to be finished until late 2015, then detailed design has to occur, etc. none of the plans made now aren't planned to happen until 2020. The gardiner will still be with us for at least another 6 years.

Other than the streetcar lines, there is a very real chance GO expansions and the DRL will occur, and by the time council votes on this (late april) we will likely know whether or not they will happen.

It's really scary to watch all the critical downtown transportation systems reach capacity or require immediate replacement all at the same time that downtown employment and population growth hits a historic high. It's kind of like finding out you've lost your job on the day your wife tells you you're going to have twins.

Toronto's transportation mess is a mess of its own making, but I don't know if anyone could have predicted that the Gardiner would fail at the exact time that a DRL is badly needed, at the exact same time that additional passengers from the EC and Spadina extension begin to flood whatever room we have on the YUS. It really is a clusterf**k in the making.

We have two saving graces right now: new streetcars (so, downtown-only passengers get a minor reprieve in capacity, if not travel times), and GO (so, more 905 passengers can stream into the downtown core). I'm afraid that GO's ability to relieve the TTC can only go so far: for one, the EAs for all day service on the other lines is proceeding too slowly for comfort; secondly, GO is not a proper rapid transit system, and still thinks of itself as a rush hour commuter service. Despite the fact that service on the Lakeshore has been boosted to half-hourly service, the lack of fare integration with the TTC and its connectivity to other transit within the City of Toronto probably means that it hasn't significantly changed travel patterns for people who live in southern Scarborough or southern Etobicoke.

 

[junior43]

I would say that all-day service on the Stouffville and Richmond Hill lines should be the prerequisite before tearing down Gardiner East. It's what the report assumes to begin with. TTC-GO Fare integration would be nice too for Scarberians and North Yorkers.

Without showing some serious transit improvements, this one is going to be political hot potato in the East. Not just Scarborough. Markham and Durham residents will probably be more unhappy about this. Though, they can't take out on their municipal politicans like Scarborough residents can.

But they can donate to Ford's campaign, or whoever supports keeping the Gardiner.........

 

[Grimace]

One popular ‘highlight’ from the report could be seen as misleading, especially if people are unaware of its underlying assumptions. It’s this one: ‘With removal of the Gardiner, auto travel times will increase by about 10 minutes’.

The report states that these traffic predictions are based on the year 2031, with the assumption that all of the following transit improvements will be in place:

1) A downtown relief subway line
2) New streetcar lines in the east bayfront and on Broadview
3) GO service improvements

The report indicates that the Gardiner east could be removed in about three years – say by 2018. Most of those transit improvements won’t be in place by then, and really none of them are guaranteed at this point, so the true impact on travel times seems more uncertain than the data presented in the report.

It would be nice to see the data behind these traffic studies. The assumptions about transit improvements affect the travel times for all options. The "remove" option is ten minutes slower than "maintain" and 5 minutes slower than "improve" and "replace". There is no reason to conclude that the delta between "remove" and the 3 other options will change if
the transit improvements are not made, even though total times for all options may go up. The reason I say that is because from my observation traffic on the Eastern Gardiner is never the cause of congestion. If westbound is backed up, it is because of the traffic jam from York/Spadina traffic. If eastbound is backed up, it is because of backed up northbound traffic on the DVP. The reason travel times will increase if you remove the eastern Gardiner is because it is not congested, so the impact of slower speeds and traffic lights actually has an impact. For the most congested period, westbound during PM rush hour, I suspect removal would not impact travel times much if at all.

 

[innsertnamehere]

It's really scary to watch all the critical downtown transportation systems reach capacity or require immediate replacement all at the same time that downtown employment and population growth hits a historic high. It's kind of like finding out you've lost your job on the day your wife tells you you're going to have twins.

Toronto's transportation mess is a mess of its own making, but I don't know if anyone could have predicted that the Gardiner would fail at the exact time that a DRL is badly needed, at the exact same time that additional passengers from the EC and Spadina extension begin to flood whatever room we have on the YUS. It really is a clusterf**k in the making.

We have two saving graces right now: new streetcars (so, downtown-only passengers get a minor reprieve in capacity, if not travel times), and GO (so, more 905 passengers can stream into the downtown core). I'm afraid that GO's ability to relieve the TTC can only go so far: for one, the EAs for all day service on the other lines is proceeding too slowly for comfort; secondly, GO is not a proper rapid transit system, and still thinks of itself as a rush hour commuter service. Despite the fact that service on the Lakeshore has been boosted to half-hourly service, the lack of fare integration with the TTC and its connectivity to other transit within the City of Toronto probably means that it hasn't significantly changed travel patterns for people who live in southern Scarborough or southern Etobicoke.

Most of that is changing, Metrolinx is now throwing itself into fare integration, and the EA for Stouffville AD2W is well underway, if simply because it is the easiest and cheapest corridor to implement, and has strong off peak ridership already. The big key for this whole thing will be the transit taxes, that will give $2 billion annually to work with for capital, compared to its roughly $200 million annual capital budget for GO that it currently has.

 

[FNTS]

Most of those transit improvements won’t be in place by then, and really none of them are guaranteed at this point, so the true impact on travel times seems more uncertain than the data presented in the report.

Yeah, but also those numbers are based on expected population growth and increased traffic, not current levels. Seeing how empty that section of the Gardiner is right now, I wouldn't be surprised if for a few years after removal driving times wouldn't be affected that much. And transit improvements or lack thereof would probably affect all options (remove/maintain/improve/replace) equally.

 

[Admiral Beez]

I'm in Cologne, Germany this week. While only one million people to Toronto's 2.6, this city has well sorted transit system (like most German cities).

In order to get rid of the Gardiner you must first eliminate its reason for being, that of the need for people to use their cars to get to and leave the city from the suburbs and GTA. That's what I see here in Germany. There's still lots of cars, but Cologne is not cut apart by highways, and neither in Frankfurt (I took the ICE train to Cologne earlier this week).

So, build outlying car parks on a masive scale, linked with reliable, fast and conveniently timing trains to Union and build other stations in the city. IIRC, the old city of Toronto, which the Gardiner mostly serves, has only three train stations (Union, Danforth and Exhibition), with only Union serving any outyling area.

Only once the network is set, pull down the entire Gardiner, leave and improve Lakeshore with roundabouts and sequenced lights to improve traffic flow.

 

[TOareaFan]

IIRC, the old city of Toronto, which the Gardiner mostly serves, has only three train stations (Union, Danforth and Exhibition), with only Union serving any outyling area.

You seem to be assuming that the only people using the Gardiner are those that are those that live directly East and directly west of the city. I think the steady stream of traffic from the 427 onto the Gardiner would suggest that those NW of the city also are using it so you would have to include Bloor Station on the KW line......and, presumably (although I am not a regular user) the same can be said of people coming in from the N/NE so are there other stations on those GO lines?

 

[g2fl]

6 Freeway Removals That Changed Their Cities Forever

For other cities it was not the end of the world - in fact in the long run it benefited them. The gardiner may be our only highway in/out of the downtown core, but removing it may put a new emphasis on public transit (downtown relief lines, new lines to the suburbs, expansion of GO-Service)

 

[junctionist]

We'll be fine without the Gardiner so long as we keep expanding transit to maintain transportation capacity into the downtown core. Without all day GO services and the DRL, downtown might stagnate somewhat without the Gardiner. Also, the quality of transit is important. It should be quick, comfortable, have all the modern amenities like fare cards and Wifi and the facilities should be attractive so that everyone including affluent people will want to use it.

 

[Bojaxs]

I think extending the Bloor-Danforth line to Sherway Gardens would take a lot of Mississauga drivers off the Gardiner.

 

[salsa]

I think extending the Bloor-Danforth line to Sherway Gardens would take a lot of Mississauga drivers off the Gardiner.

That's what the GO trains are for.

 

[MrsNesbitt]

That's what the GO trains are for.

Indeed. There's no reason Mississauga -> Downtown Toronto commuters should need to bus to Sherway and then stop at every Old Mill and Christie along Line 2 until they can transfer at St. George. It wouldn't get very many drivers off the Gardiner when it would take nearly twice as long