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Roads: Keep the Gardiner, fix it, or get rid of it? (2005-2014)

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andrewpmk said:
Similarly for the Ride for Heart today, Lake Shore was pretty badly congested by noon or so. There is a similar effect when Lake Shore is closed for marathons, the Honda Indy, Caribana etc. There ought to be a total ban on closing any of the main roads in this city for special events, the effect on traffic congestion is totally unacceptable.
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Ride for Heart put 13,000 people on Gardiner. This isn't far off it's usual Sunday load, so it's not really wasting the resource (similar number of people are carried). Economically, these events bring a bunch of money into the host cities in addition to being enjoyable for many who live here.


Aside from that, what would you close off instead? It's a 25km to 75km route (you can have them lap 3 times with wide roads) and some space around the start/finish lines. Perhaps you would close off Yonge street from Finch to Front (~26km)? It would take hundreds of cops to cover all of the intersections. No through traffic would be allowed, only bridged streets (Highway 401) would remain open.

Perhaps instead you would close off Bloor/Danforth from Birchmount to Kipling Street (26km)? DVP would be the only North/South through street.

I think giving them a chunk of the DVP/Gardiner is probably one of the least disruptive routes.
 
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Dandy Horse said:
only if you wanted to maintain the same number of cars driving in the area. It all depends on what you think we should be investing our time and money in 2013 and the future.
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Not even.

Most drivers want off Gardiner in the downtown area. Very few drivers want to go through. Capacity of Gardiner is actually restricted by the on/off ramps rather than the highway lanes themselves in the central portion.

One benefit of being at ground level is the number of intersecting streets increases significantly when you don't need ramps. This will allow cars to get off the highway in that section much easier than they can today. This improved access to local streets is going to be increasingly important when as add 50,000 residents to the east side of downtown.
 
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rbt said:
Ride for Heart put 13,000 people on Gardiner. This isn't far off it's usual Sunday load, so it's not really wasting the resource (similar number of people are carried). Economically, these events bring a bunch of money into the host cities in addition to being enjoyable for many who live here.
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You shouldn't be holding these sorts of events in city limits at all. Hold them in some rural area far from downtown Toronto where there is minimal traffic disruption. Or have the event really early in the morning so that whatever roads are closed get reopened by 10-11am on Sunday morning before traffic gets to be a problem. The DVP didn't fully reopen until after 3pm, causing traffic congestion and delays to a whole bunch of GO bus routes. Similarly if there is a marathon hold it in northern York Region or something on back roads. Having events closing major roads almost every weekend in the summer just annoys everyone who has to work on weekends or use the GO bus system. Toronto traffic is bad enough when the Gardiner, Lake Shore and DVP are fully open even on weekends.
 
The logical solution is to have bus-only lanes for the major replacement roads then - not banning these events from taking place. Imagine if Boston marathon takes place in what, their version of Maple, ON.

AoD
 
Ride for Heart starts at something like 6:30 am. How much earlier would not inconvenience you?

These events raise millions for charities and contribute to the local economy because people travel from all over and stay in hotels, eat in restaurants and so on. I think they are an important part of a city's economy and vibrancy. And for the record, I live in an area where roads are closed pretty much every weekend during the spring/summer/fall for events.
 
Cars have exclusive access to these roads 350+ days per year, so forgive me if I don't have any sympathy for motorists complaining that they get inconvenienced occasionally on Sunday mornings. That's just plain selfish as far as I'm concerned, especially considering the charitable nature of these events.
 
andrewpmk said:
You shouldn't be holding these sorts of events in city limits at all. Hold them in some rural area far from downtown Toronto where there is minimal traffic disruption. Or have the event really early in the morning so that whatever roads are closed get reopened by 10-11am on Sunday morning before traffic gets to be a problem. The DVP didn't fully reopen until after 3pm, causing traffic congestion and delays to a whole bunch of GO bus routes. Similarly if there is a marathon hold it in northern York Region or something on back roads. Having events closing major roads almost every weekend in the summer just annoys everyone who has to work on weekends or use the GO bus system. Toronto traffic is bad enough when the Gardiner, Lake Shore and DVP are fully open even on weekends.
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Moving the event outside city limits just shifts the congestion to northern York Region or wherever, on roads with even less capacity.

I've never found the events (which really do not occur 'almost every other weekend' in the summer) to be a problem in terms of congestion. They start early and finish early enough for the majority of weekend traffic. The problem really lies with the 'advance warning' you mentioned: there are still drivers who don't get the message and act as if these events are sprung on them at the last minute, or who think they'll be the only ones taking that particular alternative route.

When an event is on that doesn't even involve a road closure, just a higher volume of traffic (such as the Ex), it's astounding to see the volume of drivers who still assume they can get through on Lake Shore, who don't realize that means most other drivers will try to the use Gardiner and who would never consider using the (consequently largely unused) Queensway instead. Or any permutation of the above.
 
andrewpmk said:
You shouldn't be holding these sorts of events in city limits at all.
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IMO, a city without events wouldn't be a city worth living in. Can't imagine a New York that didn't close down 10th, 11th, and 12th Ave/West St for 4th of July fireworks.

Heck, even small towns shut-down main street (sometimes it's the only street) on occasion for a parade.
 
rbt said:
IMO, a city without events wouldn't be a city worth living in. Can't imagine a New York that didn't close down 10th, 11th, and 12th Ave/West St for 4th of July fireworks.

Heck, even small towns shut-down main street (sometimes it's the only street) on occasion for a parade.
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But don't you see?!? He was mildly inconvenienced. Surely something must be done!
 
andrewpmk said:
You shouldn't be holding these sorts of events in city limits at all. Hold them in some rural area far from downtown Toronto where there is minimal traffic disruption. Or have the event really early in the morning so that whatever roads are closed get reopened by 10-11am on Sunday morning before traffic gets to be a problem. The DVP didn't fully reopen until after 3pm, causing traffic congestion and delays to a whole bunch of GO bus routes. Similarly if there is a marathon hold it in northern York Region or something on back roads. Having events closing major roads almost every weekend in the summer just annoys everyone who has to work on weekends or use the GO bus system. Toronto traffic is bad enough when the Gardiner, Lake Shore and DVP are fully open even on weekends.
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Wait, so you want an event that involves being active to move to a transit-inaccessible location so that everyone has to drive to get there? Or, indeed, own a car?
 
Wrenkin said:
Wait, so you want an event that involves being active to move to a transit-inaccessible location so that everyone has to drive to get there? Or, indeed, own a car?
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It's easy enough to run a marathon or bike ride that starts and ends near a main bus route (say somewhere in northern York Region) but most of the route uses minor back roads with little traffic and causes little disruption.
 
andrewpmk said:
It's easy enough to run a marathon or bike ride that starts and ends near a main bus route (say somewhere in northern York Region) but most of the route uses minor back roads with little traffic and causes little disruption.
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This is 13000 people we're talking about. 2 bike racks per bus (if those are even available) is not ideal.
 
AlvinofDiaspar said:
andrewpmk:



For people living where, driving to where? There ought to be a total ban on out of towners complaining about congestion in the city when they are helping to suck up road capacity. Congestion is a facet of a big city - deal with it.

AoD
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I used to drive my daughter to the CNE on Sat mornings and the only place it was crowded was the Ex itself when there were events and/or soccer matches. East of Jarvis to the Don was often so dead I was about the only car. Assuming they figured out the access properly from the DVP to Richmond/Front/Don Roadway/the new stuff GG will build at the soap plant, my guess is this section of Gardiner comes down, and is as little missed as the section to Leslie.
 
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