Roads: Keep the Gardiner, fix it, or get rid of it? (2005-2014)

[TOareaFan]

So? It was only $5 a month; compared to the $120+ a month that Toronto residents are taxed to use TTC.

I was just saying it is unfair combo.

Bob lives at Queen and Spadina and works at Loblaw's H.O. He pays a toll to and from work & the $60 VRT.

Sally lives in Brampton and works at Queen & Spadina.....she just pays the tolls.

I have a lot more in common with Sally than Bob......but that funding formula does not seem right to me.

 

[dunkalunk]

i heard on the radio i believe it was adam vaughan suggested selling the gardiner a la 407 and using the windfall to build the drl and wwlrt.

No. Bad. A 2% regional sales tax would be better.

 

[Paolo]

the should just terminate it at the lake shore and widen the lake shore all the way to the don valley parking lot.
that way all they need to do is widen the ramps from spadina down to lake shore, while they do this they can make a true left turn lane onto spadina the one currently in use is bad design they should make the ramp curved so it goes north on spadina instead of having the ppl do left turn, no one really goes south on lower spadina anyway and if they need to they can take the next street then when all the traffic is routed to lakeshore then they can easily dismantle the gardiner express way (GEW) with minimul interuption

 

[ssiguy2]

I still think the toll would be too high and encourage people just to take Lakeshore/King/Queen. Of course there is one option if Toronto wants to go the tolling route that Torontonians would love............don't toll them. The city can always produce decal for, as an example, $25/year`and put it on their windshield just like any other toll highway for people get a monthly toll pass. This one, however, would work in reverse and instead of tolling the vehicle it would NOT toll the vehicle. In other words if you are a recident of the City of Toronto you can travel on the Gardiner {or DVP} free of charge and all vehicles that don't have the decal {ie everyone NOT living in the city} has to pay the toll.

The bulk of the traffic on the Gardiner and significant amount on the DVP comes from outside the city borders so let them pay for it. In a Metro that is so incredibly politically split like Toronto and where their respective transportation authorities don't recognize each other's existence, Torontonians would druel over the prospects of making those hated 905ers pay roads in Toronto that travel free on. There is absolutely no negative repercussions for any Toronto politicians but quite the contrary. They would be seen as standing up for the City and getting the money to help in the ribbon cutting ceremony of the DRL.

There is not a damn thing Queen's Park or any of the other mayor's could do about it and would be very cheap to setup and be a revenue bananza.

 

[Markster]

That's an interesting idea.
Bring back the VRT, and it comes with a free pass for a toll Gardiner.

As for selling the highway to a private consortium, that would be a one way ticket to $50 tolls. I would prefer that the city manage any tolling system, and reap the rewards.

 

[k10ery]

That doesn't make any sense. The point of road tolls is to reduce usage so the traffic starts to flow freely. Why would you give people free access just because they live in Toronto? Or an unlimited use monthly pass for that matter?

Apply the toll and use the money to repair the Gardiner. Or use the money to reduce property taxes, and then pay for the repairs with property taxes - it comes to exactly the same thing in the end.

 

[gweed123]

That's an interesting idea.
Bring back the VRT, and it comes with a free pass for a toll Gardiner.

I actually really like that idea. Good way to sell the VRT too.

"Pay to register your vehicle, get the DVP and Gardiner for free!"

As much as I despise the 416 vs 905 mentality, politically that option is probably the best sell.

 

[AKS]

That's an interesting idea.
Bring back the VRT, and it comes with a free pass for a toll Gardiner.

As for selling the highway to a private consortium, that would be a one way ticket to $50 tolls. I would prefer that the city manage any tolling system, and reap the rewards.

Rather than the VRT, maybe everyone should be treated equally. Than the 416 and 905 won't have to fight each other. Like other big cities, there's a toll on all cars. However, toll prices vary. During peak hours, the toll cost triples. That will change people's habits and decrease the congestion on the Gardiner. People will either have to leave earlier or later for work or take alternate paths. It's seems to be working in other cities. People's driving habits changed and the city got its revenue. I wonder though if the Gardiner should be uploaded back to the province. Since it's a shared infrastructure and a vital artery for the province, I don't see why Toronto has to maintain it.

 

[js97]

Rather than the VRT, maybe everyone should be treated equally. Than the 416 and 905 won't have to fight each other. Like other big cities, there's a toll on all cars. However, toll prices vary. During peak hours, the toll cost triples. That will change people's habits and decrease the congestion on the Gardiner. People will either have to leave earlier or later for work or take alternate paths. It's seems to be working in other cities. People's driving habits changed and the city got its revenue. I wonder though if the Gardiner should be uploaded back to the province. Since it's a shared infrastructure and a vital artery for the province, I don't see why Toronto has to maintain it.

Agreed, the province needs to contribute to the repairs. It's not only torontonians that use the Gardiner/DVP. It's a thoroughfare alternative for ontarians that watn to cross our city.

The other option is to simply have a toll fare at the 427/missisauga. the VRT would go a long way to pay for roads.

 

[rbt]

Agreed, the province needs to contribute to the repairs. It's not only torontonians that use the Gardiner/DVP. It's a thoroughfare alternative for ontarians that watn to cross our city.

Very few people go through Toronto via Gardiner (401 is a different story).


Nearly all who don't live there are going to be either working or shopping within the city at a business which pays the commercial rate which is quite a bit higher than the residential rate. I believe even parking lots pay the commercial rate now.

 

[Electrify]

There will be negative consequences if the Gardiner isn't removed too. There's no guarantee any amount of fixing will be fool proof. The bottom line is the Gardiner is crumbling. You can do patch work here and there, but eventually, it will crumble anyway. It would be safer to take it down before it causes a big accident and kill people. Like you said, many people use the Gardiner. If a big accident were to occur, many people would be caught in the middle of it. I just keep thinking about the mall that crashed down on all those shoppers and buried them. The engineers claimed it was safe. I guess they were wrong.

Really wish you took on the second part of my argument with the Bloor subway example. The point is that infrastructure cannot last forever without upkeep, in fact it is the key reason we pay taxes. No question I dislike Ford, but for Miller to charge vehicle owners $60 per year while at the same time leaving the Gardiner to rot is one of the stupidest things any politician has ever done in our nation's history.

This doesn't mean we should rush in to fix the Gardiner. If the Sheppard subway was crumbling, I say let it and use the money to extend the LRT to Yonge. But we shouldn't simply let it crumble either. We need to take a serious look at not just its local impact, but regional as well. Can our public transit system handle the influx of people who used the Gardiner to get into downtown? Can the local road system handle to loss of this highway? How will cross city trips be affected, not just along Lake Shore but the 401 and 407 as well? Etc.

Before you assume that I am 100% pro-Gardiner, I did think of one advantage of taking it down between at least Jarvis and the DVP. Currently in good traffic (it could happen) from York Region it can still faster to drive into the city than take the GO train. With this stretch of the Gardiner gone, not only could it equalize the time difference, but could allow for stops south of the 401 without hurting its attractiveness against the car.

 

[nfitz]

... but for Miller to charge vehicle owners $60 per year while at the same time leaving the Gardiner to rot is one of the stupidest things any politician has ever done in our nation's history.

Hang on there has been extensive work done on the Gardiner in the last few years. Remember all the new overpasses around Jameson? The Gardiner hasn't been left to rot!

The $60 a year only covered a small fraction of the road maintenance budget - let alone the operating cost of traffic lights, plowing, salting, etc.

Miller only stopped major long-term maintenance for a couple of years on a small portion that was being considered in the EA for removal. Surely that's a wise move, not a stupid move. At the same time money was put in the long-term budget to take down that piece of the Gardiner.

The stupid move came by Rob Ford, who cancelled the EA to take down the Gardiner, and removed the budget item. But decided not to restore the long-term maintenance budget for that piece.

 

[TOareaFan]

Hang on there has been extensive work done on the Gardiner in the last few years. Remember all the new overpasses around Jameson? The Gardiner hasn't been left to rot!

The work around Jameson had very little to do with the Gardiner......it was a revamp of bridges and roads that, mostly, connected to Lakeshore and went over the Gardiner....the real impact on the Gardiner was that for a period of time you could not use the Jameson exit to get off of the eastbound expressway because of that work.

I get a bit dizzy trying to follow the Gardiner discussion (I admit that) but I always thought that when people talk about getting rid of it they are talking about the elevated sections....at Jameson it is not only not elevated, it is somewhat lower than the roads around it.

The $60 a year only covered a small fraction of the road maintenance budget - let alone the operating cost of traffic lights, plowing, salting, etc.

I think people viewed the $60 a year as additional funds (ie. prior to that new tax some money was already being allocated to road maintenance and operation and the $60 was added to that) not that the $60 was meant to cover the total costs of roads.

 

[rbt]

I think people viewed the $60 a year as additional funds (ie. prior to that new tax some money was already being allocated to road maintenance and operation and the $60 was added to that) not that the $60 was meant to cover the total costs of roads.

It largely did.

The city spent record amounts of it's own money on street maintenance/repair during 2008-2010 as part of the stimulus spending.

The city paid 66% of the cost and the feds paid 33% of the cost of those projects ($380M and $190M respectively). $380M in that single year was about 8 years worth of vehicle registration fees. You will recall that 4 or 5 of "Ontario's worst roads" were no longer Ontario's worst roads after that year.

This was in addition to the usual budgeted road repairs.

The Ontario stimulus contribution went to the new trams (roughly 33% with Toronto on the hook for 66%).

 

[nfitz]

The work around Jameson had very little to do with the Gardiner......it was a revamp of bridges and roads that, mostly, connected to Lakeshore and went over the Gardiner....

They have everything to do with the Gardiner. The bridges all went over the Gardiner, and if there was not Gardiner expressway, and simply a boulevard at surface level with lights and roundabouts, there would be no bridges to spend $million rehabilitating.