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Roads: Keep the Gardiner, fix it, or get rid of it? (2005-2014)

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Simplistic views of changing the Gardiner Lakeshore corridor are part of the problem. Just demolishing it isn't very viable. Just burying isn't very easy. Just building a viaduct above the railway tracks sounds good till you start drawing in the ramps. Solutions are out there but anything workable is likely going to be some combination of boulevards, one-way pairs, tunnels, underpasses, etc. There are so many different conditions between, say, Strachan and the DVP, that there have be dozens of possible solution to maintain capacity while building something more stable and less intrusive. To say that the existing expressway can't be improved on is to ignore the evidence of cities round the world.
 
I know this is a very emotional comment but I find it absolutely unthinkable that 13 years ago Waterfront Toronto proposed some sort of solution (or at least recommended an analysis of solutions) in 1999/2000 and the city simply sat and sat on that document. Now we hear that the road is crumbling from the inside out and that only emergency repairs have been done in the past 3 years.

Only in this city do we see report after report after report with no action and then when the crap hits the fan everyone is shrugging their shoulders saying "wha happen"

13 years we identified the Gardiner's problem, for 13 years we have ignored it. 13 years ago we could have begun work on the Gardiner's replacement and we could have been 13 years closer to resolution. Instead we've sat and said basic is good enough. Well obviously now when basic means a half a billion dollar repair bill people have suddenly woken up.

Ugh, it just blows my mind away...

*steps off of soapbox*
 
Woodbridge_Heights said:
I know this is a very emotional comment but I find it absolutely unthinkable that 13 years ago Waterfront Toronto proposed some sort of solution (or at least recommended an analysis of solutions) in 1999/2000 and the city simply sat and sat on that document. Now we hear that the road is crumbling from the inside out and that only emergency repairs have been done in the past 3 years.

Only in this city do we see report after report after report with no action and then when the crap hits the fan everyone is shrugging their shoulders saying "wha happen"

13 years we identified the Gardiner's problem, for 13 years we have ignored it. 13 years ago we could have begun work on the Gardiner's replacement and we could have been 13 years closer to resolution. Instead we've sat and said basic is good enough. Well obviously now when basic means a half a billion dollar repair bill people have suddenly woken up.

Ugh, it just blows my mind away...

*steps off of soapbox*
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Wouldn't be surprised if we go another 13 years without anything getting done. At this point it seems more likely that the Gardiner will be permanently shut down in six years while the city scrambles to find a fix.

Either that or there is a catastrophic accident on the gardiner. Whether it be a full blown structural failure, a chunk of concrete killing several people or the vehicle punching through the top is yet to be seen.

Both of these scenarios seem much more likely than us finding a solution to this problem. Let's just hope that nobody is killed by this structure.
 
Woodbridge_Heights is, of course, correct.

Similar to what I stated earlier with the City totally ignoring the Gardiner for years and not having a sound plan for what to do with it BEFORE they gave the OK to CityPlace is gross mismanagement of the transportation file. Now, whatever the City decides , is going to be much more complicated and costly due to having condos and other towers right up against the elevated section.

I think Parkdale is out of luck. No matter what the City finally comes up with I don't think we will see any fundamental changes on the Gardiner west of Spadina. I think they will simply fix it and let it function as it does now. The real issue I think most agree is what are the options from Spadina to the DVP. Auto supporters are right in stating that the City needs a major highway to the downtown core from the West as it carries traffic to downtown from East Toronto all the way to Windsor which is home to more than 5 million people. This is to say nothing of the fact that it is an essential commercial route to the downtown.........the Gardiner in some form will still be with Toronto for decades.

A tunnel, although technically doable, would cost a small fortune which Toronto doesn't have and the tolls would have to be astronomical to cover the debt and interest on the route. Also, the higher the tolls go the more vehicles will avoid the tolls by taking Lakeshore/Queen/King. The tolls would also be so high that no remaining amount would be available from those tolls to help pay for a DRL. Toronto only has one option for the Gardiner and only one................give it to someone and let them take care of it.

By simply giving it away and having a private company pay for the repairs and taking down the Spadina to DVP section and cleaning it up Toronto will actually save the big one time bill and ongoing expense of the highway but the cleared land would be denvelopable which means tax revenue. As noted before, one should be careful about giving away infrastructure and potential revenue..........that is quite correct except that the Gardiner isn't a revenue tool. All these years it could have been a real money maker for the City but City Hall refused to grab the balls needed to introduce tolls. Toronto kept what could have been a money maker and turned it into something that has cost them a small fortune.

The only bad thing about the Gardiner having to be completely redone within 6 years is that it wasn't 18 months............that would force the City, TTC, Metrolinx, and GO to move ahead without endless studies and reports. Such is not to be but anyway you cut it, the falling Gardiner is the best thing to happen to transit riders in Toronto in a very long time.
 
Perhaps if Miller used the money from the Vehicle Registration Fee from drivers to maintain the highway rather than invest in poorly planned bike lanes out of spite, we wouldn't be in this mess.

Meanwhile the biggest irony here is that the biggest defender of the car, Rob Ford, may be responsible for the final death blow to the highway as he doesn't want to raise the revenue to maintain it.
 
Electrify said:
Can't speak for Haider, but Eric Miller is known to support progressive transportation policies and is not a pro-car zealot by any stretch. The fact that even he sees the importance of the Gardiner should be a wake up call for those who believe it can be removed without negative consequence.
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There will be negative consequences if the Gardiner isn't removed too. There's no guarantee any amount of fixing will be fool proof. The bottom line is the Gardiner is crumbling. You can do patch work here and there, but eventually, it will crumble anyway. It would be safer to take it down before it causes a big accident and kill people. Like you said, many people use the Gardiner. If a big accident were to occur, many people would be caught in the middle of it. I just keep thinking about the mall that crashed down on all those shoppers and buried them. The engineers claimed it was safe. I guess they were wrong.
 
What if the final bill doubles and it ends up being one billion dollars? Because this is essentially a bandaid solution I have a hard time supporting it. This road needs to be tolled to pay for its constant repair or it needs to be tolled if it's buried. If we bury it then how many people will be willing to drive on it with its aprox $20each way toll? If we repair it then how much longer till another major bill comes? I love the road but it looks like we are about to start sinking the few dollars we have into a money pit. Nobody wants to acknowledge the report for the avenue that happened under Miller. Maybe it's because Miller was in charge at the time. Maybe because it appears to be anticar. But the more I think about it the more it looks like the best of the three options, none of which I am fond of. However at least with the avenue we won't be constantly surprised with repair bills for safety.
 
dunkalunk said:
Would some variation on connecting Front to the Gardiner be worth reviving? I would estimate that in a new structure over the rail corridor would be more or less $1 Billion as a conservative estimate.
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I do believe it would. Both in relieving demand on the Gardiner and in providing an alternate route during construction of whatever they plan on doing to fix the Gardiner mess.

One of the issues I have with the Gardiner is that there are few access points West of Spadina. Extending Front to Strachan and adding access ramps would give people headed to areas North of Front to avoid the mess at Spadina and York/Bay/Yonge. I also think another access point around Parkdale connecting to the King/Queen/Roncy intersection could do the same. I know that makes automobile access to the city a bit easier and people are loath to have an new off ramp in their neighborhood but at least it takes the pressure off of the Gardiner. Much the same way that Richmond/Adelaide do in the East
 
Woodbridge_Heights said:
I also think another access point around Parkdale connecting to the King/Queen/Roncy intersection could do the same. I know that makes automobile access to the city a bit easier and people are loath to have an new off ramp in their neighborhood but at least it takes the pressure off of the Gardiner. Much the same way that Richmond/Adelaide do in the East
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I'd be against adding ramps in this area mainly because King, Queen, and Roncesvalles don't really have the extra capacity to handle the additional traffic load. Additionally, there are space constraints between the Queensway and the Rail Corridor and people wanting to access to Parkdale can do so via the existing ramps at British Columbia Drive/Dufferin Street as well as at Lake Shore Blvd at the Humber.
 
Let's face it - we aren't talking about 'saving' the Gardiner. We're talking about either completetly rebuilding it in situ or coming up with an alternative solution.

Woodbridge_Heights said:
I do believe it would. Both in relieving demand on the Gardiner and in providing an alternate route during construction of whatever they plan on doing to fix the Gardiner mess.

One of the issues I have with the Gardiner is that there are few access points West of Spadina. Extending Front to Strachan and adding access ramps would give people headed to areas North of Front to avoid the mess at Spadina and York/Bay/Yonge. I also think another access point around Parkdale connecting to the King/Queen/Roncy intersection could do the same. I know that makes automobile access to the city a bit easier and people are loath to have an new off ramp in their neighborhood but at least it takes the pressure off of the Gardiner. Much the same way that Richmond/Adelaide do in the East
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What I would do is take down the Gardiner east of Spadina and from Spadina have ramp from Lakeshore up over Dan Leckie Way and past the Ex. As we know the problem is the intersection of Spadina and Lakeshore won’t be able to handle all of the traffic coming into the city so some must be diverted. I think the solution is to connect the Gardiner to both Front Street AND Adelaide Street. A ramp off the Gardiner near Strachan would drop under the Gardiner while curving north, then to go over the railroad tracks. From there it would branch - with one branch becoming an extension of Front Street tying into the intersection of Bathurst and Front; and the other branch running further north dipping into a tunnel just before Wellington Street, running under Garrison Creek Park, then swinging eastward and resurfacing as a ramp in the middle of Adelaide Street just east of Bathurst Street. A parallel tunnel would feed traffic onto the Gardiner from Richmond Street. The result would be traffic coming into the city would have the choice of Lakeshore, Front or Adelaide as conduits into the core. Expensive? Yes, but probably no more expensive than rebuilding the Gardner in situ.
 
Along with tolls, could the Vehicle Registration Tax be revived and go towards fixing, tunneling or anything else related to the Gardiner?
 
I heard on the radio I believe it was Adam Vaughan suggested selling the Gardiner a la 407 and using the windfall to build the DRL and WWLRT.
 
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