balenciaga
Banned
"The new plan calls on the city to spend $505-million — instead of $170-million — from 2013 to 2022".
So guess it is $50M a year, not 10-20M any more.
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"The new plan calls on the city to spend $505-million — instead of $170-million — from 2013 to 2022".
So guess it is $50M a year, not 10-20M any more.
the lemur
Senior Member
Good point. It's as if the TTC doesn't want to know that there's a transport node right there. The Porter shuttle is probably faster but it depends on the traffic, and it doesn't take the most direct route. A TTC bus would be easier to implement than a new streetcar stop, but the TTC would probably want to make it part of an existing route, which there isn't near there.
Also, I can't be the only one bothered by the half-and-halfness of the name Eireann Quay, can I? I get the intention behind it, but why not an English name and an Irish one: Ireland Quay/Cé na hÉireann (if I'm not mistaken)?
ssiguy2
Senior Member
I can understand {but not agree} with the people who want to spend the money on the Gardiner and keep it the way it is.
The lefties will say "take transit" but the people who use the Gardiner/lower DVP could very legitemately turn around and ask "what transit"? GO is hopelessly inadequate and slow and the TTC's downtown service is pathetic for a city it's size.You can't , on one hand tell people to ditch the car but on the other hand not give them an alternative.
This is something both Vancouver and Calgary have understood. Vancouver is impossible to get around as the city continually told people to take transit but the difference is that in Vancouver they actually built the transit lines so people could actually have an alternative. Calgary is similar. Calgary has a good road network but contrary to what some think Calgary has not freeway driving thru the inner city. Calgary used the chicken and the egg to get people to take transit. It has had very high downtown parking taxes/rates since the 1960s and has for decades been the most expensive place to park your car downtown in NA except NYC. That was the stick but they built the carrot as well with their ever expanding LRT system which has become the most successful in NA made even moree remarkable by Calgary being a new oil capitol of just $1.1 million with very high income levels and relatively lower densities. The city not only has done a fantastic job in it's LRT but at the same time made the system the most enviornmentally friendly one in NA by being the only rapid transit system on the continent that is run by wind power generated electicity.
It is completely unreasonable and illogical to expect people to embrace the tearing down of a important inner city freeway and tell them to take transit when the transit isn't there. For the people coming from Brampton/Humber they may have had an option until Metrolinx got it's greasy hands on the vital Georgetown Corridor making the potential of an eastern DRL using the current rail corridor no longer an option. Metrolinx's "25 year plans" are a useless gesture because if people will tolerate the tearing down of the Gardiner or tolls they will want the alternative up and running the same time the highway is torn down. You can't reasonably expect people just to take Metrolinx's word that "something will be done at some point in the future".
I actually agree with the tearing down of the Gardiner from roughly Spadina to the DVP but I can appreciate where opponents are coming from and their trepedations.
The lefties will say "take transit" but the people who use the Gardiner/lower DVP could very legitemately turn around and ask "what transit"? GO is hopelessly inadequate and slow and the TTC's downtown service is pathetic for a city it's size.You can't , on one hand tell people to ditch the car but on the other hand not give them an alternative.
This is something both Vancouver and Calgary have understood. Vancouver is impossible to get around as the city continually told people to take transit but the difference is that in Vancouver they actually built the transit lines so people could actually have an alternative. Calgary is similar. Calgary has a good road network but contrary to what some think Calgary has not freeway driving thru the inner city. Calgary used the chicken and the egg to get people to take transit. It has had very high downtown parking taxes/rates since the 1960s and has for decades been the most expensive place to park your car downtown in NA except NYC. That was the stick but they built the carrot as well with their ever expanding LRT system which has become the most successful in NA made even moree remarkable by Calgary being a new oil capitol of just $1.1 million with very high income levels and relatively lower densities. The city not only has done a fantastic job in it's LRT but at the same time made the system the most enviornmentally friendly one in NA by being the only rapid transit system on the continent that is run by wind power generated electicity.
It is completely unreasonable and illogical to expect people to embrace the tearing down of a important inner city freeway and tell them to take transit when the transit isn't there. For the people coming from Brampton/Humber they may have had an option until Metrolinx got it's greasy hands on the vital Georgetown Corridor making the potential of an eastern DRL using the current rail corridor no longer an option. Metrolinx's "25 year plans" are a useless gesture because if people will tolerate the tearing down of the Gardiner or tolls they will want the alternative up and running the same time the highway is torn down. You can't reasonably expect people just to take Metrolinx's word that "something will be done at some point in the future".
I actually agree with the tearing down of the Gardiner from roughly Spadina to the DVP but I can appreciate where opponents are coming from and their trepedations.
pman
Senior Member
But it's not illogical to ask Gardiner users to pay for:
a) the $500 million or so it will take to keep the thing from falling down, and
b) the property taxes Toronto forgoes on land taken up with Gardiner on and off ramps
After all, we'd never build the thing today and spending $500 million to patch it up amounts to building a new Gardiner for all those people who want to live in the suburbs and drive downtown to work.
TOareaFan
Superstar
and those that want live downtown while working in the suburbs? In all my years of commuting, the most startling development has been the 21st century surge in the reverse commute.
dunkalunk
Senior Member
All the more reason to accelerate the electrification of the Georgetown and Lakeshore corridors, the construction of a DRL subway, and the construction of the Waterfront East/West LRTs. I would be impressed if this could be done in 12 years, but I won't hold my breath.
rbt
Senior Member
I don't see why a toll would be on one direction only, and if it was (leaving is free, entering is pay) then they would pay on their commute into downtown at night.
Electrify
Senior Member
Perhaps we should examine the best and worst case scenarios for the city if this stretch of Gardiner is taken down.
Best case:
Traffic congestion does not increase on Richmond and Adelaide, nor do transit lines suffer from overburdened capacity. The city remains about as lively as it is now, as people move downtown to make up for the transportation loss. Perhaps it becomes a little less congested and overcrowded to create a more comfortable urban environment as more attention is paid to local cores, but not so much to affect the local economy.
Worst case:
With a major connection to the downtown severed, Richmond, Adelaide, and Lake Shore become chocked with congestion and gridlock. In addition, for crosstown commutes to and from the southwest, the 401, 427, and 403 become even more congested than they are now. Transit lines are operating at crush capacities at all times of day, and rush hour crowding makes people envy Tokyo's subways - at least there they have people to help shove you into the train! Eventually major white collar employment has enough of this, and even banking industries move to suburban office parks because its employees and deliveries cannot make it in on time. This loss of an economic anchor causes property values in the inner city to crash, and Toronto ends up looking like Detroit.
Obviously the outcome would be somewhere in the middle, but the question is where...
Best case:
Traffic congestion does not increase on Richmond and Adelaide, nor do transit lines suffer from overburdened capacity. The city remains about as lively as it is now, as people move downtown to make up for the transportation loss. Perhaps it becomes a little less congested and overcrowded to create a more comfortable urban environment as more attention is paid to local cores, but not so much to affect the local economy.
Worst case:
With a major connection to the downtown severed, Richmond, Adelaide, and Lake Shore become chocked with congestion and gridlock. In addition, for crosstown commutes to and from the southwest, the 401, 427, and 403 become even more congested than they are now. Transit lines are operating at crush capacities at all times of day, and rush hour crowding makes people envy Tokyo's subways - at least there they have people to help shove you into the train! Eventually major white collar employment has enough of this, and even banking industries move to suburban office parks because its employees and deliveries cannot make it in on time. This loss of an economic anchor causes property values in the inner city to crash, and Toronto ends up looking like Detroit.
Obviously the outcome would be somewhere in the middle, but the question is where...
ssiguy2
Senior Member
I absolutely agree but Metrolinx nor the TTC have any credibility of building rapid transit on time or on budget. Metrolinx and the TTC come out with new maps every few years but none of them get built. Electrification would be ideal but when is that going to take place? Metrolinx says within 25 years and that's no help.
As a rule I don't support tolls for existing infrastructure as it penalizes people living in one particular area for no other reason than they happen to be living in that particular area. If Toronto hadn't let the Gardiner rot in the first place this wouldn't be an issue. By talking endlessly about what to do with the Gardiner and always promising nothing but new plans to be done at some future date they have put themselves in this position.............it's called poor planning. Toronto should have had a comphrehnsive plan on the Gardiner well before CityPlace went up but again that would require transportation planning which Toronto is completely inept at. Now with all the condos right up against the damn thing even tearing it down is going to be a logistical nightmare.
I think the only thing the city can do is simply give the Gardiner away. It should simply hand over the Gardiner to any private company theat wants to take it over and they can charge whatever the market will bear. The proviso would be that they would be responsible for tearing down the DVP to roughly Spadina extension and clearing the whole damn thing up. They could then sell the land that section of the Gardiner was sitting on and use those proceeds to off set the inital cost of the Gardiner purchase. They would of course be responsible for the Gardiner up keep.
It would be a win-win as it would still allow a freeway entry into the inner city which is essential for commercial vehicles, would absolve Toronto of any Gardiner maintenance, would get rid of a downtown eyesore, would help reconnect the city to it's Waterfron far more than any yellow crane ever would, and the city would get the tax revenue of the new land and condos that would go up along the torn down DVP to Spadina section.
It makes perfect sense, good for the private partner, the City, the Waterfront, and still leave the city with freeway entrance.
The only bad thing about the Gardiner is that it's not falling down faster as it would forse the city to act very fast but it won't and the city will wait til 2020 to make her decision and by that time it will be too late and all the work would have to be done for safety reasons.
But bridges are a bit different than an urban highway. For example, the Confederation Bridge only tolls you on the way out, because the reality is there are a limited number of ways out (the bridge and I think they still have 1 or 2 ferry routes left). Unless you want to swim across, you NEED to pay the toll.
With a new Gardiner tunnel, people could take the free Gardiner in in the morning, and then take the free Lake Shore on the way out in the evening to avoid paying the exit toll. One-way tolls only really work when there are limited points of access.
nfitz
Superstar
Correct. Would only work in Toronto if they did something like toll every crossing of the Don River, 401, and Humber River.
sixrings
Senior Member
IMO GPS tolling is the best solution. We can toll main roads such as eglinton and sheppard one price and highways and on and off ramps other prices. What happens when everyone goes hybrid if you have a gas tax. Your income stream dies. Instead GPS tolls taxes everyone no matter how much gas their car drinks.
dunkalunk
Senior Member
You have to be careful when selling off public assets to a private entity. I would hate to end up with a clause in the contract that prohibits the city/metrolinx frrom building or upgrading any rapid transit on the Lake Shore corridor to ensure as many people as possible vehicles travel the Gardiner as possible. It doesn't so much solve the problem as it sells off a significant revenue stream for the city with accountability to their shareholders first.
dunkalunk
Senior Member
You have to be careful when selling off public assets to a private entity. I would hate to end up with a clause in the contract that prohibits the city/metrolinx frrom building or upgrading any rapid transit on the Lake Shore corridor to ensure as many people as possible vehicles travel the Gardiner as possible. It doesn't so much solve the problem as it sells off a significant revenue stream for the city with accountability to their shareholders first.
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