Roads: Gardiner Expressway catch-all, incl. Hybrid Design (2015-onwards)

[Amare]

Toronto not having many transit alternatives to the Gardiner made me laugh. Ignore the crude drawing but I'd say the lakeshore line is a pretty good alternative for the Gardiner.. Tones of parallel streetcar lines too for last-mile journeys. Bus lanes can also be added to the new Blvd so GO buses can pull into union station at a respectable speed. Every argument I hear in defense of keeping the Gardiner talks about why Toronto is different from other cities that have torn down highways or why our transit and road systems just couldn't handle all the congestion. If our roads can't handle it then we should get people off the roads where possible, if transit isn't a good alternative than invest in improvements or new lines. No one who supports the Gardiner does so because they want Toronto to be a better city. Freeway removals have made cities like San Francisco, Seoul, and many smaller cities nicer places to live, its a shame we don't have that kind of ambition in Toronto.

View attachment 489260

Yes, the Lakeshore East/West Lines would be able to handle more whenever GO electrification on those lines is complete. Until that time there is only so much they will be able to handle. Even if they are electrified, not everyone would be able to make good use of those lines.

If you are actually referring to streetcars as a good alternative, I have some pixie dust to sell to you. There's not a day in this city where the streetcar is ever considered a good alternative period, let alone a decent option if one is trying to make it somewhere without wasting their time. If you want a nice leisure trip i'd highly recommend the streetcar, asides from that they are not a viable option until the day the TTC starts taking them seriously.

Congestion is bad for a short time after a road closure but after a few weeks travel patterns adjust. We see it time and again when capacity is removed.

Yes travel patterns would adjust I dont disagree, but you have to look at where and how they would adjust. As I mentioned, parallel roads would take on increased traffic as well various GO lines (some of which are virtually at capacity until improvements are made), and Lines 1 and 2.

Until Toronto has serious transit alternatives, I dont see how removing the Gardiner is going to make life easier for anyone in this city. I dont even drive myself and I can still see the importance of it.

 

[Lyphe]

I wrote another piece on this recently, reiterating my support for the compromise: to rebuild the last section, east of Cherry, at grade.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/art...nes-on-the-future-of-the-gardiner-expressway/

This would in fact open up more land, about five acres; and building and maintaining ~800m of road at grade vs elevated would be meaningfully cheaper. Nobody knows how much cheaper, because the city has refused to study it.

Great article.

There is no need for the Gardiner. Downtown is not meant to be a zone you drive through/past. It is a destination or a starting point to enter or exit from. I live downtown. I have a car. I get frustrated like anyone else with traffic. Yet, I recognize, especially after travelling extensively my entire life, that the Gardiner's days in it's current incarnation are meant to come to a close. We need to ask ourselves, 'if the Gardiner wasn't already built, but the land was available today, would we opt to build an elevated expressway there in 2023'? Of course not. And that is how we should approach this.

I've not traditionally be a fan of Oliva Chow, but her view on bike lanes and the Gardiner have my support. I really hope she takes action on the Gardiner and I hope she is not afraid to use her strong powers if needed to move that issue forward.

 

[fanoftoronto]

Quite frankly it isnt false guesswork, because we see what happens when the Gardiner is shut down for various events/planned maintenance every single year and we have seen the exact same situation play out over the past 20+ years (ie: the same roads that are gridlocked). Yes this might be for a short period of time, but if it's the same situation time and time again I highly doubt that situation would be different if parts of the Gardiner were permanently removed.

Toronto doesnt have many alternatives plain and simple (from a transit perspective) and until we get to that day, the city wouldnt be able to handle the adverse consequences from removing the Gardiner.

Did you happen to fully ready the post that you replied to? And actually looked at the image at the bottom of the post?

The Gardiner, both sides, accounts for a miniscule portion of inbound traffic downtown. If you think the traffic is bad when the Gardiner is shut down, make it 20 times worse if the subway was shut down. Or 10 times worse if the GO trains were shut down.

If we did demolish the Gardiner, the traffic will go back to normal within the next 6 months while people figure out alternative options to get downtown. We'll have a greener downtown, no eyesore of a horrible overhead highway, new development opportunities, and an overall better experience downtown.

Graph taken from @jmi22 post

 

[afransen]

Did you happen to fully ready the post that you replied to? And actually looked at the image at the bottom of the post?

View attachment 489373

The Gardiner, both sides, accounts for a miniscule portion of inbound traffic downtown. If you think the traffic is bad when the Gardiner is shut down, make it 20 times worse if the subway was shut down. Or 10 times worse if the GO trains were shut down.

If we did demolish the Gardiner, the traffic will go back to normal within the next 6 months while people figure out alternative options to get downtown. We'll have a greener downtown, no eyesore of a horrible overhead highway, new development opportunities, and an overall better experience downtown.

Graph taken from @jmi22 post

Yes, that chart really does drive home the point that the Gardiner is really not as critical for getting people downtown as many might think. The Gardiner is the two dark blue slivers at the bottom of the chart, perhaps 5% of the people arriving downtown do so on the Gardiner (eyeballing the chart). It is even just a small part of the cars that arrive downtown, perhaps 10-15%.

In some ways, I suspect that eliminating the Gardiner might help with overall congestion downtown as much of it is caused by cars funneling to and from the Gardiner.

 

[fanoftoronto]

Yes, the Lakeshore East/West Lines would be able to handle more whenever GO electrification on those lines is complete. Until that time there is only so much they will be able to handle. Even if they are electrified, not everyone would be able to make good use of those lines.

If you are actually referring to streetcars as a good alternative, I have some pixie dust to sell to you. There's not a day in this city where the streetcar is ever considered a good alternative period, let alone a decent option if one is trying to make it somewhere without wasting their time. If you want a nice leisure trip i'd highly recommend the streetcar, asides from that they are not a viable option until the day the TTC starts taking them seriously.


Yes travel patterns would adjust I dont disagree, but you have to look at where and how they would adjust. As I mentioned, parallel roads would take on increased traffic as well various GO lines (some of which are virtually at capacity until improvements are made), and Lines 1 and 2.

Until Toronto has serious transit alternatives, I dont see how removing the Gardiner is going to make life easier for anyone in this city. I dont even drive myself and I can still see the importance of it.

I'll link the picture shared by @jmi22 for you as well.

The Gardiner accounts for basically 5% of the total inbound traffic to downtown. And I'm talking eastbound and westbound combined. Westbound from the DVP is basically a rounding error in the total traffic coming downtown. The TTC and GO can and will take the traffic without even increasing their current frequencies. That's how low the Gardiner accounts for inbound traffic. Might I add that the Ontario Line, GO improvements, and further streetcar improvements are ongoing to further improve the speed and capacities of these modes. The Gardiner being removed would be a small blip that's only barely noticeable in the grand scheme of things.

You need to stop buying your own pixie dust on how important you think the Gardiner is for people commuting downtown.

Highways are horrible at moving vast number of people when compared to streetcars, subway trains, and commuter rails. You need to do your research before making such statements. And when you do the research you'd understand the errors in your statements.

 

[turini2]

Why are people so obsessed with people only using the Gardner to go downtown? What about people who use it to get across town to get to the QEW and to places like Hamilton or Niagara falls or something like that? This is exactly why people who live on the east end of the city fell like we've been treated unfairly by having to deal with construction on the Gardner and the Lakeshore at the same time. To say that people should just use public transit is an insult and you are making assumptions about things for no reason other than to show what you think needs to be done to improve things.

I guess everyone thinks that people should use the 401 or the 407 to get across the city because how dare we have a more convenient route for people to get across the city.

Because the data shows that not many people use the Gardiner to cross downtown, and the eastern section is not heavily used compared to other sections of highway in the city. Most destinations are somewhere downtown. People "bypassing" downtown will use the OG Toronto bypass, the 401.

For people from (e.g) the Danforth or Scarborough, the street grid means it's often easier/quicker to stay on an east-west street to cross downtown, or head north on the DVP - depending on the destination/origin.

Furthermore... there will still be a road afterwards - it will be a significantly more pleasant road for the people who live there, not a noisy fast moving highway. People will still be able to get where they want to go. Traffic evaporation and other factors also encourage people to take different routes to where they want to go.

 

[rbt]

Why are people so obsessed with people only using the Gardner to go downtown? What about people who use it to get across town to get to the QEW and to places like Hamilton or Niagara falls or something like that? This is exactly why people who live on the east end of the city fell like we've been treated unfairly by having to deal with construction on the Gardner and the Lakeshore at the same time.

It's a fairly small group but IMO it's they're also 95% of the legitimate use of Gardiner. Most on/off ramps through downtown could be removed and it could be reduced to 1 lane in each direction and still have capacity to spare. These changes would resolve nearly every pedestrian and aesthetic problem with the highway.

Keep one ramp at Spadina for those who find it necessary to drive downtown and charge a $50 toll to use it: Trades, delivery vehicles, and buses can pass that $100 daily fee onto their customers.


2010 traffic study:

1500/hour is about 70% capacity of a free-flowing (no merging) single highway lane.

 

[jmi22]

Seems this forum has hit a dead end lol. A few quite vocal but very un-informed posters have rebutted every study and report presented to them with essentially just "I think its important".

 

[fanoftoronto]

Seems this forum has hit a dead end lol. A few quite vocal but very un-informed posters have rebutted every study and report presented to them with essentially just "I think its important".

Can't get disheartened. I want to add to the previous post by @rbt regarding the traffic coming into downtown on the Gardiner.

4,500 westbound after DVP and 5,650 eastbound after Dufferin. Here's the hourly capacities split by type of transit:

Bicycle paths and pedestrian walkways have comparable traffic capacities as the Gardiner Expressway. Let that sink in! The adamant folks in this thread just can't accept the fact being presented in front of them.

With the introduction of the Ontario Line, there will be a new line with a capacity of 25,000 to 30,000 peak demand. This is 6 times the traffic going westbound on the Gardiner at DVP.

It's stupid how inefficient highways are at moving people. And with how much of an eyesore, hassle for maintenance, and potential development land the Gardiner blocks, it's an easy sell to demolish the entire thing.

 

[Amare]

Did you happen to fully ready the post that you replied to? And actually looked at the image at the bottom of the post?

View attachment 489373

The Gardiner, both sides, accounts for a miniscule portion of inbound traffic downtown. If you think the traffic is bad when the Gardiner is shut down, make it 20 times worse if the subway was shut down. Or 10 times worse if the GO trains were shut down.

If we did demolish the Gardiner, the traffic will go back to normal within the next 6 months while people figure out alternative options to get downtown. We'll have a greener downtown, no eyesore of a horrible overhead highway, new development opportunities, and an overall better experience downtown.

Graph taken from @jmi22 post

I'll link the picture shared by @jmi22 for you as well.

View attachment 489567


The Gardiner accounts for basically 5% of the total inbound traffic to downtown. And I'm talking eastbound and westbound combined. Westbound from the DVP is basically a rounding error in the total traffic coming downtown. The TTC and GO can and will take the traffic without even increasing their current frequencies. That's how low the Gardiner accounts for inbound traffic. Might I add that the Ontario Line, GO improvements, and further streetcar improvements are ongoing to further improve the speed and capacities of these modes. The Gardiner being removed would be a small blip that's only barely noticeable in the grand scheme of things.

You need to stop buying your own pixie dust on how important you think the Gardiner is for people commuting downtown.

Highways are horrible at moving vast number of people when compared to streetcars, subway trains, and commuter rails. You need to do your research before making such statements. And when you do the research you'd understand the errors in your statements.

Guess it's settled huh? Let's tear the whole thing down tomorrow!

 

[innsertnamehere]

Can't get disheartened. I want to add to the previous post by @rbt regarding the traffic coming into downtown on the Gardiner.

4,500 westbound after DVP and 5,650 eastbound after Dufferin. Here's the hourly capacities split by type of transit:
View attachment 489635

Bicycle paths and pedestrian walkways have comparable traffic capacities as the Gardiner Expressway. Let that sink in! The adamant folks in this thread just can't accept the fact being presented in front of them.

With the introduction of the Ontario Line, there will be a new line with a capacity of 25,000 to 30,000 peak demand. This is 6 times the traffic going westbound on the Gardiner at DVP.

It's stupid how inefficient highways are at moving people. And with how much of an eyesore, hassle for maintenance, and potential development land the Gardiner blocks, it's an easy sell to demolish the entire thing.

I don’t think anyone here is arguing that new vehicle infrastructure is needed to serve growth downtown - rather, some of it is needed to service a functional downtown economy.

Believe it or not, a lot of trips cannot be completed by transit or are challenging to complete as transit. Contractors, delivery vans, construction equipment, irregular visitors from far away, etc. all still need vehicle access to the downtown.

Not all that must move downtown is people.

And sure - demolishing the Gardiner wouldn’t eliminate that access - just like, say, closing the lakeshore west GO line wouldn’t make it impossible to take transit downtown, but it would make it a lot more challenging and create a lot more delay for a lot of what are usually very high value trips.

The sky wouldn’t fall if the Gardiner was demolished, but demolishing it would make accessing downtown for a whole whack of demographics, usually very high value demographics for the economy, a lot more challenging.

 

[afransen]

And sure - demolishing the Gardiner wouldn’t eliminate that access - just like, say, closing the lakeshore west GO line wouldn’t make it impossible to take transit downtown, but it would make it a lot more challenging and create a lot more delay for a lot of what are usually very high value trips.

If they are high value trips, we should prove it through tolling. If the trips disappear, then clearly the trips aren't all that valuable.

 

[innsertnamehere]

If they are high value trips, we should prove it through tolling. If the trips disappear, then clearly the trips aren't all that valuable.

I don’t disagree with this.

 

[fanoftoronto]

Guess it's settled huh? Let's tear the whole thing down tomorrow!

I'll be happy with that, and it will prove better for Toronto in the long run, just like it has for a bunch of other cities across the world!

I don’t think anyone here is arguing that new vehicle infrastructure is needed to serve growth downtown - rather, some of it is needed to service a functional downtown economy.

Believe it or not, a lot of trips cannot be completed by transit or are challenging to complete as transit. Contractors, delivery vans, construction equipment, irregular visitors from far away, etc. all still need vehicle access to the downtown.

Not all that must move downtown is people.

And sure - demolishing the Gardiner wouldn’t eliminate that access - just like, say, closing the lakeshore west GO line wouldn’t make it impossible to take transit downtown, but it would make it a lot more challenging and create a lot more delay for a lot of what are usually very high value trips.

The sky wouldn’t fall if the Gardiner was demolished, but demolishing it would make accessing downtown for a whole whack of demographics, usually very high value demographics for the economy, a lot more challenging.

If all auto traffic going downtown was going through the Gardiner, then you have a point. The graph that was linked clearly showed that the Gardiner only accounts for around 15% of all auto traffic going downtown!

Those delivery trucks, construction vehicles, irregular visitors, etc, that currently use the Gardiner will use the same routes as the rest 85% of the auto traffic or they will use the newly expanded Lakeshore Boulevard.

 

[allengeorge]

I’m still angry that the Wynne government nixed tolling (which was probably the only courageous move John Tory has ever made).

If you want to make it more palatable to Toronto residents, you could have any cars registered in Toronto get a discount. Not great from a traffic planning perspective, but politically expedient.

As pointed out above, if the traffic on the Gardiner was truly important, people will take it and pay/pass on the toll.