Roads: Gardiner Expressway catch-all, incl. Hybrid Design (2015-onwards)

[innsertnamehere]

I'd assume the DVP would be the 404. The interchanges are already numbered that way. On the other hand, it doesn't meet 400-series standards; nor does the Gardiner east of the Humber.

there aren't really "Standards" for 400-series highways, per-se. The 400 still has an at-grade intersection on it, and there are tons of sub-standard interchanges, tight curves, reduced speed limits on 400-series highways.

The general standard is that it should be a free-flow freeway, which the Gardiner and DVP meet.

The province may just retain the Gardiner / DVP name as well, of course. The QEW historically did end at the Humber River however, and when it was downloaded east of the 427 in the 1990's the City extended the Gardiner Expressway designation out to the 427.

As to why the Gardiner was built as an elevated expressway and not a tunnel in the 1960's.. we may need a reminder as to what the area the Gardiner ran through at the time. It was built through what effectively amounted to a heavily industrial area far from the city centre.

 

[turini2]

there aren't really "Standards" for 400-series highways, per-se. The 400 still has an at-grade intersection on it, and there are tons of sub-standard interchanges, tight curves, reduced speed limits on 400-series highways.

The general standard is that it should be a free-flow freeway, which the Gardiner and DVP meet.

The province may just retain the Gardiner / DVP name as well, of course. The QEW historically did end at the Humber River however, and when it was downloaded east of the 427 in the 1990's the City extended the Gardiner Expressway designation out to the 427.

As to why the Gardiner was built as an elevated expressway and not a tunnel in the 1960's.. we may need a reminder as to what the area the Gardiner ran through at the time. It was built through what effectively amounted to a heavily industrial area far from the city centre.

Yes, I remember having a conversation with someone when I was at TMU - Toronto avoided the worst of the demolitions for highways that American cities suffered, even before the cancellation of the Spadina Expressway. Not many cities had ample industrial land and railway corridors that could be used for highways...

 

[robmausser]

Toronto avoided the worst of the demolitions for highways that American cities suffered,

Thats because Toronto already barely has any highways compared to American cities even after the demolitions. Even Montreal makes Toronto seem European for how many highways they have criss-crossing the city. Which is funny because many people consider Montreal the more European city for their bike lanes, midrises, etc.

 

[reinventingthewheel]

Thats because Toronto already barely has any highways compared to American cities even after the demolitions. Even Montreal makes Toronto seem European for how many highways they have criss-crossing the city. Which is funny because many people consider Montreal the more European city for their bike lanes, midrises, etc.

Think turini meant the demolition of Toronto in order to build highways, not demolition of highways.
Spadina cancellation was monumental as it led to cancellation of the other expressways planned across Toronto.

See:
Wikipedia - Cancelled expressways in Toronto

 

[nfitz]

Thats because Toronto already barely has any highways compared to American cities even after the demolitions. Even Montreal makes Toronto seem European for how many highways they have criss-crossing the city. Which is funny because many people consider Montreal the more European city for their bike lanes, midrises, etc.

And like the retention of streetcars in Toronto, many think it was Toronto being more progressive. Yet in reality it was because Toronto was so far behind other cities, that by the time the pendulum started to swing the other way, Toronto was still playing catch-up!

 

[turini2]

Think turini meant the demolition of Toronto in order to build highways, not demolition of highways.
Spadina cancellation was monumental as it led to cancellation of the other expressways planned across Toronto.

See:
Wikipedia - Cancelled expressways in Toronto
View attachment 516206

Same with London, UK - both dodged a bullet by not bulldozing the city to build highways!

 

[2323]

So if the province takes over the Gardiner and DVP will they be given numbers? I guess since the QEW doesn’t have one it’s not technically needed.

Perhaps the naming will stay but I can see Hwy 2 being revived for at least the Gardiner. The QEW designation might also just go right back to where it was pre- downloading at the Humber. The DVP is too different in quality from the 404 that I can see it being applied there, but perhaps if the province shells out some money to widen some curves, expand some shoulders, and upgrade interchanges then it could happen.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Thats because Toronto already barely has any highways compared to American cities even after the demolitions. Even Montreal makes Toronto seem European for how many highways they have criss-crossing the city. Which is funny because many people consider Montreal the more European city for their bike lanes, midrises, etc.

Montreal has an 8-lane half-tunneled downtown freeway, a 6-lane elevated expressway running through it's inner suburbs, a 6-lane trenched expressway through central city neighbourhods, and until recently a 6-lane elevated expressway feeding into the downtown as well.

 

[Dan416]

Toronto has fewer highways and fewer subways than most other cities it's size. It's amazing it works as well as it does.

 

[rdaner]

True but the amount of subways we have is about to start going up in big chunks starting in 2024. Also our extensive streetcar system is not often counted despite carrying more passengers per day than many NA cities subway lines! Lol

 

[Dan416]

True but the amount of subways we have is about to start going up in big chunks starting in 2024. Also our extensive streetcar system is not often counted despite carrying more passengers per day than many NA cities subway lines! Lol

Too bad you're better off walking than taking a streetcar. I think other cities do streetcars or at least LRTs better than Toronto tbh. My main issue with streetcars in Toronto is that the stops are extremely close together and that they share the road with cars.

 

[allengeorge]

Too bad you're better off walking than taking a streetcar. I think other cities do streetcars or at least LRTs better than Toronto tbh. My main issue with streetcars in Toronto is that the stops are extremely close together and that they share the road with cars.

The TTC and the city seem particularly ineffective in making the most out of the streetcar network, that’s true. It could be so much better than it currently is.

 

[afransen]

The downside of uploading the Gardiner to the province is that it makes it less likely it will be dismantled in the near future.

 

[JasonParis]

So if the province takes over the Gardiner and DVP will they be given numbers? I guess since the QEW doesn’t have one it’s not technically needed.

The QEW does have an internal MTO number. 459 I think it is.

In terms of nomenclature, I think the 404 would take over the entirely of the DVP. Although, many 400-series highways also have secondary names, so you could perhaps give the entire 404 the "Don Valley Parkway" name as well. In terms of the Gardiner, I think its name would almost certainly be lost to the QEW/459. Maybe Dundas Square can be renamed "Big Daddy Square" as a gesture to this loss.

 

[reinventingthewheel]

many 400-series highways also have secondary names,

Like 401’s secondary name of Carnage Alley?