Road Tolls

[Dan416]

No. User fees are not substitutes for taxes. User fees are meant to impose a cost (or exatract a willingness to pay from people) on the use of public goods that otherwise would be treated as free goods. That is to say, they would be used to the point where the marginal utility would be zero (exhausted). For example, roads are currently a free good so they're used to the point where they are completely gridlocked with congestion and nobody can get anywhere. If public transit was free, you would have the same effect with buses, streetcars and subways crowded beyond usable capacity (hell, they're already getting there!).

Taxes pay for the provision of the service. User fees regulate the use of the service.

Very interesting. Seems to make some kind of economic sense.

 

[W. K. Lis]

No. User fees are not substitutes for taxes. User fees are meant to impose a cost (or exatract a willingness to pay from people) on the use of public goods that otherwise would be treated as free goods. That is to say, they would be used to the point where the marginal utility would be zero (exhausted). For example, roads are currently a free good so they're used to the point where they are completely gridlocked with congestion and nobody can get anywhere. If public transit was free, you would have the same effect with buses, streetcars and subways crowded beyond usable capacity (hell, they're already getting there!).

Taxes pay for the provision of the service. User fees regulate the use of the service.

Since the 416's already pay for their roads through their property taxes, ideally, the 905ers and other non-416ers should pay a toll. So every 416 should get one transponder that allows them free use of their roads, but charge everyone a toll. Not going to happen.

 

[Dan416]

Since the 416's already pay for their roads through their property taxes, ideally, the 905ers and other non-416ers should pay a toll. So every 416 should get one transponder that allows them free use of their roads, but charge everyone a toll. Not going to happen.

OK well this just gets ridiculous. So Torontonians will have to pay road tolls in Peel, York, Halton & Durham, and then Peel residents will have to pay road tolls in Toronto, York, Halton & Durham, and York residents will have to pay road tolls in Peel, Toronto, Halton & Durham?

It's so convoluted it will never work.

 

[voxpopulicosmicum]

Logic isn't allowed when dealing with Ford Nation.

If it's something they need, it's a worthwhile public expense and should be paid for using taxes. Demanding them to pay anything extra for it is outrageous. If it's something they don't need, then it's a complete waste of taxpayer dollars, and people should be paying for the extra services that they use.

Yeah, they're not free, I pay for them in my taxes. So don't make me pay for them again with a user fee (second tax).

I pay for tonnes of stuff I don't use either in my taxes - public parks, public transit, community housing etc etc etc.

Can't have it both ways buddy.

Would you make the same argument for eliminating transit fares on the TTC?

"Can't have it both ways buddy."

Funny how inadvertent irony can be poetry in the right hands.

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

I have a question...

Is the Transit City funding pot protected or does Premier Dalton McGuinty have the power to wake up one day, turn on the people of the City, dip his hand into that pot and use some of the money for fixing or replacing the Gardiner?

 

[nfitz]

Not protected at all. Though I doubt he'd choose to take it away and spend it on something like the Gardiner, which is 100% maintained by the City.

I can't see this happening, given that so many of caucus and cabinet are from City of Toronto. More likely a future government would make changes, though next provincial election is in 2016, and might be too late to make radical changes.

 

[Electrify]

Don't forget that the province already took some money out of the Transit City pot which saw Finch cut between Keele and Yonge and Sheppard cut back to Morningside. I don't think we will see many more cuts to funding on the current projects.

 

[gweed123]

So I did a boatload of number crunching this evening to see how much this plan would generate in revenue:

Before I give you the numbers, I want to outline the assumptions that I made, because if I made any errors in these, it could affect the outcome.

1) The AADT is an average of the 2008 Traffic Volumes for that particular stretch of highway (http://www.raqsb.mto.gov.on.ca/techpubs/TrafficVolumes.nsf/tvweb?OpenForm&Seq=10). What I did was I multiplied the AADT for each section by the length of that section, and then divided the sum of those products by the total length, to give a weighted average AADT.

2) The function I used to derive PHF from AADT is: PHF = (AADT/24)*2.63, which is apparently a standard formula for figuring out PHF in an urban area.

3) My peak periods are 3 hours in both the AM and PM (6:30-9:30, 3:30-6:30). The PHF is therefore multiplied by 6. The off-peak usage is the AADT minus the PHF x6.

4) For highways where the Express lanes are tolled and the Collectors are free, I assumed a 40/60 split in the peak periods, and a 30/70 split in non-peak. I did this because more people will choose the free option over the tolled option, so traffic will not be distributed evenly like it is now.

5) Pricing is $0.20/km in peak periods, $0.10/km in off-peak. DVP, Gardiner, and QEW are not tolled off-peak.

6) For each highway I assumed an average trip length along that highway. 400 = 10km, 401 = 20km, 403 = 3km, 404 = 8km, 410 = 6km, 427 = 6km, QEW = 13km, DVP = 14km, Gar = 14km, 401 East Ext = 10km, 401 West Ext = 12km. Please look at the map to see if these numbers make sense, and note that these are only for the tolled sections of the highway, not the entire length. This is the section that can have the greatest effect on the numbers, it's also the most arbitrary.


I have the toll expansion broken down into 4 Phases, with the expected revenue shown, with the routes tolled in brackets:
Ph1: $138.2 million (401, 427)
Ph2: $221.5 million (401, 427, 410, 400, 404, 403)
Ph3: $332.0 million (401, 427, 410, 400, 404, 403, QEW, Gar, DVP)(QEW, Gar, DVP are peak only)
Ph4: $386.0 million (401 + Extensions, 427, 410, 400, 404, 403, QEW, Gar, DVP)

These numbers seem rather low, but there may be an error in my methodology. If the numbers check out, then we may have to consider other tolling options in order to boost revenue (additional routes, higher rates, etc).

PS: I have all of this laid out in an Excel spreadsheet, so changing any one of the variables isn't that big of a deal. All I have to do is change the number and the whole spreadsheet will update itself.

 

[kEiThZ]

Imposing tolls on non residents only: bad idea. Some arbitrary line on Steeles Avenue should not determine whether you pay tolls or not. Also, almost as many people commute out of Toronto as commute in to Toronto. Why should a person who lives in Toronto who drives on the DVP to get to Markham not pay a toll while a person who lives in Markham who drives on the DVP to get to Toronto pay a toll? The purpose of these tolls is to encourage people who work in Toronto to move to Toronto and people who work in Markham to move to Markham.

Also any road tolling scheme needs to avoid charging excessively high toll rates (particularly during off peak times) which lead to the road being used far below capacity. Highway 407 charges high off peak tolls to maximize profit which leads to it being underused while Highway 7 suffers from traffic jams all day 7 days a week. Tolls should be very low, or free during off peak hours. Otherwise people who use the Gardiner will switch to Lake Shore East/Queensway/Dundas/Bloor, and people who use the DVP will switch to Avenue/Yonge/Mt Pleasant/Bayview/Leslie/Don Mills/Victoria Park/Woodbine/Lake Shore East. Charging only the amount of tolls needed to decongest the highways (which may mean no tolls at certain off peak times) will minimize spillover traffic.

I've always wondered why the 407 corporation did this. It does not seem to be in their best interest to have such light traffic on the 407 during off-peak hours.

 

[kEiThZ]

This is why I personally think that GO REX (or GO electrification in general) should be financed through debt to begin with, with all 400 series highways in the GTA starting tolling the day that GO REX opens. Not only will there be a shiny new system in place, the cost of doing your current commute by car is also going to go up.

If by contrast you begin tolling before adequate transit is in place, all you're going to do is piss people off, and push them onto an already overcrowded and barely effective transit system.

Use the toll money to pay down the interest and part of the principle every month on that debt. The amount of money the tolls should bring in will be more than enough to pay down the interest and the principle over a 30 year period, and fund some additional projects on the side.

Spot on. Fully agree with this.

Personally, I would support tolling the 401 Express, the Gardiner, the DVP and the 427 (at least south of the 401). And that money should go towards financing the electrification of GO, the launch of all-day GO service and the burial of the Gardiner (who says it needs to be all for transit) and pay for maintenance of the tolled portions of the highways as well.

To have it be more of a "congestion charge", I would largely restrict it to freeways south of the 401 and have time based pricing (like the 407) with a flat fee schedule for all the highways. Let's face it, the vast majority of congestion is still drivers commuting into the city and specifically the core. Merely shifting them to transit or to off-peak commutes would bring major relief.

I don't see the need to toll roads like the 410. Yes, there's lots of congestion. But once you start putting tolls in the core, and have transit that facilitates more regional commuting, I can see traffic reducing on those highways.

Launch the transit projects with debt. And then allow Metrolinx to start ramping up tolls to pay for the transit projects.

 

[gweed123]

So I've put my thoughts from earlier into PowerPoint form in order to have a more coherent form. Here's my ppt on the Highway Within a Highway (HWAH) system. Let me know what you think.

http://www2.andrew.thejohnsonclan.ca/HWAH.pdf

 

[Automation Gallery]

I say, bring it on

A majority of Toronto-area residents back lakeshore tunnel toll road, poll shows

Nine out of 10 people in Toronto and the surrounding region think traffic congestion has reached “crisis proportions†and they are increasingly willing to consider radical solutions to gridlock, a new poll suggests.

A majority would even support the construction of an underground pay-as-you-go option to the Gardiner Expressway, according to the survey by Environics Research that was made available to The Globe and

The study found that 52 per cent “somewhat support†and 26 per cent “strongly support†building a subterranean toll highway from the Humber River to the Don Valley Parkway underneath the Gardiner.

The idea is far-fetched – at about 12 kilometres, such a project would be one of the longest road tunnels in the world – but the apparent support is further evidence Torontonians and suburbanites alike are ready to put all options on the table to solve the region’s transportation crunch.

More..........http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...e-tunnel-toll-road-poll-shows/article2444921/

 

[howl]

I think building new roads into the downtown core shows a complete lack of understanding of the problem. The streets in the core are not congested because there aren’t enough roads to get cars into the city – they are congested because there are already too many cars in the city. Bring more cars into the core will just make congestion worse. The only way to reduce congestion in the core is to get more people using transit, which will free up the existing roads for people who NEED to use their cars (deliveries, handicapped, taxi’s, tourists).

My ‘fix’ would be to tear down the Gardiner and replace it with a Queen Street subway line that had a park-and-ride facility at either end.

 

[sixrings]

I think building new roads into the downtown core shows a complete lack of understanding of the problem. The streets in the core are not congested because there aren’t enough roads to get cars into the city – they are congested because there are already too many cars in the city. Bring more cars into the core will just make congestion worse. The only way to reduce congestion in the core is to get more people using transit, which will free up the existing roads for people who NEED to use their cars (deliveries, handicapped, taxi’s, tourists).

My ‘fix’ would be to tear down the Gardiner and replace it with a Queen Street subway line that had a park-and-ride facility at either end.

I think your post is great but I dont know about a park and ride facility since I cant imagine how the traffic getting out of the parking lot could be minimilized. But I do agree that what people are essentially saying is they are willing to pay more to be able to continue to drive. As a result If you build a subway those who cant afford the tolls could move to transit.. Those close enough could move to transit... And the RICH could continue driving... I know Im going to get alot of hate from this response since people are going to be outraged I am suggesting that the RICh be able to continue to do something that the rest of us want to but no longer wont be able to. HEres my response to that. If you go into manhatten what types of cars do you see? BENZ BENZ more BENZ.... The reason is because the cost of parking and tolls are so rediculous these are the only people who can afford to continue to drive. There is no way to make this "fair". Some people will have to change their lives where as others will simply pay more. What I am mostly concerned with is getting transit to work more efficiently (it would with a influx of money) and densities to be greater (it would happen because people would choose to live closer rather than farther away) and finally but most importantly it would cause busineses to move downtown (because thats where the transit is heading and thats where the people are moving).

 

[Automation Gallery]

My ‘fix’ would be to tear down the Gardiner and replace it with a Queen Street subway line that had a park-and-ride facility at either end.

Come on lets be realistic here, thats crazy talk