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Road Tolls

Should we have road tolls?

  • Yes we should

    Votes: 64 77.1%

  • No we shouldn't

    Votes: 19 22.9%
  • Total voters
    83
W. K. Lis said:
Relying on a fixed gasoline tax is no longer possible, if you want to still drive your car on highways. Especially, when they will get more efficient. The gasoline tax has to adjusted for inflation, and we have to go to tolls.
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Thinking about it some more, I do not think the province will ever bring in road tolls.

Currently, every time someone drives on the 407, or thinks about it, they are reminded about how Harris sold (99 year lease) the 407.

If toll are placed on other roads, the association of tolls with Harris's failures will be reduced.
 
The unpopularity of road tolls can stand by itself - the 407 association really doesn't need to be brought in. I think we should start to implement mild road tolls as the various transit projects (esp. GO) comes online.

AoD
 
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Historically, I've been in favour of tolls as a way to raise revenue and manage demand. I wonder though if technology shifts will change that.

The biggest issue with tolls is usually their cost to implement. "Smart" tolling systems are actually pretty expensive. I believe London's congestion charge spends almost 50% of its revenue on just running the tolling system. Systems limited to highways, with limited access points, would be cheaper, but have the perverse effect of diverting traffic to untolled routes. It seems like a big social loss to spend so much to administer a tax, even if that tax is in theory more economically efficient.

It seems like, in the future, it would be cheaper to equip cars with smart, GPS enabled, VMT meters. By itself it would be very expensive to implement and monitor, but as part of a larger intelligent transport system and vehicle black box system the marginal costs may not be too steep.
 
In terms of what solutions would work the best for generating revenue and managing traffic congestion in Toronto, tolling the Gardiner/DVP (variable, adjusted weekly in 15 minute blocks) and implementing a commercial parking levy are the best options IMO. As evidenced in the above article, building transit alone will not reduce traffic congestion, tolling congestion directly will have a greater effect.

Whether or not it would actually increase revenue, I'd also introduce variable rate parking much like the system being used in San Francisco (SFpark video) mostly because it will reduce traffic congestion caused by circling for parking. Also if you ensure that street parking is available and have a 15 minute grace period for those who have a delivery vehicle sticker in their window, you would then be able to charge delivery vehicles hefty fines for blocking lanes, as well as charge a nominal annual fee for the delivery license.

I don't see a congestion charge working in Toronto mostly because the cost to implement and operate in comparison to more localized and low-tech options.
 
Since its Toronto's property taxes that pays for maintaining the Don Valley Parkway and the Gardiner Expressway (and all non-provincial owned roads and streets), tolls should be charged for everyone, but Toronto-addressed vehicles would then get a rebate at the end of the year.
 
How about instead of providing the rebate, just reduce the amount that Toronto pays for maintenance of the highways through property taxes? Road tolls and commercial parking levy should more than cover the cost of maintenance. I don't want the city to get into a situation where it's subsidizing the driving activities of its own citizens at the expense of investing in alternate modes. Providing a rebate also adds institutional cost to calculating and providing that rebate.
 
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Great idea! Then Torontonians can pay a toll every time they drive to Markham! People from Belleville can pay a toll every time they drive to Kingston! London people can pay a toll whenever they go to Kitchener! You'll never be able to leave your home municipality ever again without paying a big toll bill! Wonderful!

This kind of tribalism is exactly the wrong type of thinking for our region. North of Steeles, south of Steeles, we're all the same. The 416-elitism needs to die right now if we want to ever become the true global city we want to become. Yes, 416 taxpayers are in a situation where we're paying for roads 905ers drive on. But we also have all the banks that fill our city coffers with tax that draw their employees from the 905 too. Also, the solution to fiscal imbalances between municipalities isn't to throw up more walls, it's to advocate for reform. How about a single GTA regional municipality that Toronto proper can be part of? We need some sort of cross-region unity, we are all one city now.
 
1overcosc said:
Great idea! Then Torontonians can pay a toll every time they drive to Markham! People from Belleville can pay a toll every time they drive to Kingston! London people can pay a toll whenever they go to Kitchener! You'll never be able to leave your home municipality ever again without paying a big toll bill! Wonderful!

This kind of tribalism is exactly the wrong type of thinking for our region. North of Steeles, south of Steeles, we're all the same. The 416-elitism needs to die right now if we want to ever become the true global city we want to become. Yes, 416 taxpayers are in a situation where we're paying for roads 905ers drive on. But we also have all the banks that fill our city coffers with tax that draw their employees from the 905 too. Also, the solution to fiscal imbalances between municipalities isn't to throw up more walls, it's to advocate for reform. How about a single GTA regional municipality that Toronto proper can be part of? We need some sort of cross-region unity, we are all one city now.
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The 400-series of highways are owned by the province of Ontario. The province downloaded many other highways (IE. 7, 27, 50) within city boundaries to the cities themselves to maintain. The cities have to maintain them from their property taxes, not gasoline taxes, not HST (Ontario portion), not license plates, etc.. The city of Toronto owns and maintains the Gardiner Expressway and Don Valley Parkway, the province owns and maintains the 400, 401, 409, 404, 427 within Toronto.

Visitors from outside of Ontario help pay for the province's highway through the gasoline tax (which has not increased in decades) and the HST, when and if they buy gasoline from a pump within Ontario. At 14.3¢ a litre and the Ontario portion of the HST, that's not much. None go to maintain Toronto owned roads. And what about the electric cars which don't even use gasoline, or hybrid cars which use maybe half, or in the future when all new cars will use even less gasoline, how do we maintain all the roads and highways then?
 
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W. K. Lis said:
Since its Toronto's property taxes that pays for maintaining the Don Valley Parkway and the Gardiner Expressway (and all non-provincial owned roads and streets), tolls should be charged for everyone, but Toronto-addressed vehicles would then get a rebate at the end of the year.
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So sick of these parochial views.
 
Coruscanti Cognoscente said:
So sick of these parochial views.
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I don't agree with them and I am a torontonian. That being said I would be okay with a toll once you come in or leave the 416. All the highways my mind should be tolled within the 416. I say that as someone whose wife drives 15km a day to work on toronto highways.
 
AlvinofDiaspar said:
The unpopularity of road tolls can stand by itself - the 407 association really doesn't need to be brought in. I think we should start to implement mild road tolls as the various transit projects (esp. GO) comes online.

AoD
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I'd support peak period tolls. Ideally, what I'd like to see is the revenue generated from peak period tolls used to reduce the fares for off-peak transit travel. That way peak transit is more competitive with peak auto (because the price of auto has gone up), and off-peak transit is more competitive with off-peak auto (because the price of transit has gone down).

The key at this point is making sure that the transit infrastructure to support the massive modal shift that would be brought on by peak period tolls is in place, because cramming people onto an already over-crowded system isn't going to help anybody.
 
As a 905er, I believe that the elevated portion of the Gardiner should be tolled to pay for its upkeep/maintenance. Otherwise, demolish it, spend money building subways and LRT instead, simple as that.

Actually, the non-elevated, former-QEW portion of the Gardiner should be tolled too. If the province doesn't pay for it, no reason for the City of Toronto to pay either. That's the province's highway, not the city's.
 
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