Road Safety & Vision Zero Plan

[44 North]

Agreed. I’m referring to coming to a full stop, looking left and right and then proceeding, not lallygagging about.

Fully stopping can be wasteful too. Also in some instances you can't properly see around the corner without inching into the roadway, thus making the initial stop rather pointless. Better to roll slowly and look, and stop if need be. Not all the time, but there are many locales where at the white line you can't see anything barrelling through. Other times it seems the stop can lull some into a false sense of security, that if you stop everyone stops. 'I waited 3sec, therefore I must be fine to proceed'.

o/t but I think Toronto should invest in better roadpaint. Make the lane markings sharper, brighter, and which stay that way for more than a year.

 

[OneCity]

I don't understand people who oppose sidewalks on their streets. Apart from all the safety issues, don't they realize that this is detrimental to the value of their properties?

Im 100% with you there should be atleast a sidewalk on one side of every street at an absolute minimum. But disagree it takes away any value and I feel its the opposite reason its often opposed. Many of these streets are old, quiet with a mature treeline which is in very high demand. I think many residents in these areas feel they will lose that 'old road' feel and lose value

 

[facepalming_brooklynite]

Im 100% with you there should be atleast a sidewalk on one side of every street at an absolute minimum. But disagree it takes away any value and I feel its the opposite reason its often opposed. Many of these streets are old, quiet with a mature treeline which is in very high demand. I think many residents in these areas feel they will lose that 'old road' feel and lose value

The value of these houses depends on whether they are appealing to prospective buyers, not on the feelings of the current residents. I'm sure most prospective buyers will prefer streets with sidewalks. Keep in mind that many people looking to buy a house have children. I would have never considered moving my family to a sidewalk-less street in Etobicoke, no matter how old the trees are.

 

[Admiral Beez]

The value of these houses depends on whether they are appealing to prospective buyers, not on the feelings of the current residents. I'm sure most prospective buyers will prefer streets with sidewalks. Keep in mind that many people looking to buy a house have children. I would have never considered moving my family to a sidewalk-less street in Etobicoke, no matter how old the trees are.

My parents used to live in Cliffcrest on Meadowcliff Drive and they loved how there were no sidewalks. It seemed to slow down traffic as pedesterians, dog walkers, etc. shared the roadspace.

 

[PinkLucy]

I live in an older area with no sidewalks on my street. The road doesn’t get much traffic ... just people who live here. It isn’t a short cut to anywhere>except for cyclists. We have no sidewalks, and it isn’t an issue. I wouldn’t object to them, but the road is wide and safe. The neighbourhood has a mix of sidewalks and no sidewalks which seems to have been determined based on how busy they are. I do long walks and cycle frequently, and it just doesn’t seem like a big deal.

 

[Northern Light]

The challenge w/no sidewalks, even on an otherwise safe street for pedestrians is winter.

Particularly for those w/accessibility challenges (wheelchair, rollator, cane) Where it may be possible to walk across someone's front lawn in summer; or at the side of a road, where's there's ample room for a slow moving car to pass........

Try the same scenario w/large snow banks on both sides of the road.

I think, in our climate, the true 'no sidewalk' scenario isn't viable.

There are ways around it........but I think you're absolutely into using snow melt systems that avoid the snow bank problem.

We don't really use those today, and the cost and time to roll that out would be substantial and is not realistic on most roads in the near to medium term.

 

[PinkLucy]

Yes good point, although to be fair sidewalks are challenging too given inconsistent clearing. And some Toronto sidewalks are challenging year-round because of their poor condition, but that's a whole other conversation.

I've lived here just two years and haven't heard anyone support or oppose sidewalks in the area .... lots of talk about other local issues though!

 

[W. K. Lis]

Most new sidewalks have a boulevard where the snow windrows can be dumped. In the older parts, they have to use monolithic sidewalks (see link), where the windrows use up some or most of the sidewalk.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Fully stopping can be wasteful too. Also in some instances you can't properly see around the corner without inching into the roadway,

So stop where prescribed and inch forward. Perhaps we need to read the Driver's Handbook again.

"If there is no stop line, stop at the crosswalk, marked or not. If there is no crosswalk, stop at the edge of the sidewalk. If there is no sidewalk, stop at the edge of the intersection (Diagram 2-24). Wait until the way is clear before entering the intersection."

I can't accept that stopping is wasteful. By not stopping your car you're gambling, and eventually you may lose.

Garbage truck rolls through four way stop and doesn't see kids

Garbage truck hits, kills 5-year-old girl

Three children struck in east-end Toronto crash.

www.thestar.com

Young girl dies after being struck by van in Leaside

Young girl dies after being struck by van in Leaside

A young girl has died after being struck by a van in Leaside Wednesday afternoon.

www.cp24.com

Whenever I'm tempted to roll through a residential four way stop I am reminded of these kids, where someone in a rush didn't come to a stop and didn't sufficiently look. In Cabbagetown where I live I see almost every car roll through stop signs. You can imagine my delight when I came home to find a TPS officer using the tree in my driveway as a blind to catch folks rolling through the stop sign. I could have hugged her as I watched her catch at least a half dozen cars.

 

[lenaitch]

The concept of 'stop' is clear and unambiguous. What does 'rolling stop' mean? Not quite but almost? 5kmh? somewhat-slower-than-the-speed-limit? Heck, blowing the stop completely works so long as there is no conflicting traffic. A rolling stop works until you notice something else that has the right of way then you jamb on the brakes and end up stopping half way through the intersection. At 3 kmh your travel roughly a meter per second - figure out the perception and reaction time plus stopping distance. Reaction time and actual stopping distance should be pretty short but it's the perception time that eats up the distance.

I was taught in motorcycle training to look left-right-left. The second left look is a confirmation since that is the lane approaching closest to you. Like a lane-changing shoulder check; they don't have to be long gazes, just quick glances so long as you are actually looking and not just going through the motions.

 

[OneCity]

The value of these houses depends on whether they are appealing to prospective buyers, not on the feelings of the current residents. I'm sure most prospective buyers will prefer streets with sidewalks. Keep in mind that many people looking to buy a house have children. I would have never considered moving my family to a sidewalk-less street in Etobicoke, no matter how old the trees are.

These streets have a mature old town feel and are some of the highest demand streets. Most certainly many residents in these areas are out to protect this and its a big part of the reason we see the Councillor push back on sidewalk.

Personally I also wouldn't want to raise kids in areas with no sidewalks. Its insanity. But theres no doubt a high number of people see things differently and the values of the homes on streets which have residents pushing back have not been affected negatively in any way.

 

[44 North]

So stop where prescribed and inch forward. Perhaps we need to read the Driver's Handbook again.

"If there is no stop line, stop at the crosswalk, marked or not. If there is no crosswalk, stop at the edge of the sidewalk. If there is no sidewalk, stop at the edge of the intersection (Diagram 2-24). Wait until the way is clear before entering the intersection."

But if you can't see what's approaching the intersection safely (say anything moving at +20km/h), then would you stop twice. Once before the intersection even if no one was there (as the law states), then once inside the intersection for 3sec to make sure nothing is coming (since that roughly follows the logic of the stop sign rule)?

Whenever I'm tempted to roll through a residential four way stop I am reminded of these kids, where someone in a rush didn't come to a stop and didn't sufficiently look. In Cabbagetown where I live I see almost every car roll through stop signs. You can imagine my delight when I came home to find a TPS officer using the tree in my driveway as a blind to catch folks rolling through the stop sign. I could have hugged her as I watched her catch at least a half dozen cars.

There's certainly varying scales of rolling. Perhaps not in the eyes of the OHTA, but on a basic level. One can roll so slow they can stop on a dime at a hint of scanned-for movement. Might be hard to quantify but it's more what I'm talking about. And I've witnessed vehicles collide caused by drivers who did make an initial 3sec stop, and numerous ped/bike close calls. So clearly it doesn't offer safety immunity. You don't often hear about these ones since they're ordinary no-charge accidents.

And agreed it's great seeing TPS catching outlaws. Tho my gladhanding is a bit more reserved since I consider TPS to be a bit of a menace on narrow residential streets. Driving way too fast, braking hard before the stop sign then gunning it forward. Great they may've made a full stop, but other aspects of passing through an intersection, and travelling through a neighbourhood in general, can be dangerous and aggressive. Watch them fly over speed humps in Cabbagetown. Surprised we don't hear of incidents from them more often.

 

[Admiral Beez]

@44 North Then stop twice. You can only fly over speed bumps if you’re breaking the law on speed. Where I live the max is 30 kph.

If you have any doubt of how to operate your vehicle, just follow the HTA and the laws. Stop where prescribed, don’t speed. Take care of more than yourself.

 

[44 North]

@44 North Then stop twice. You can only fly over speed bumps if you’re breaking the law on speed. Where I live the max is 30 kph.

If you have any doubt of how to operate your vehicle, just follow the HTA and the laws. Stop where prescribed, don’t speed. Take care of more than yourself.

Been wondering for awhile if the City should implement some form of stop sign system for laneways in the older parts of the city - specifically where they meet the sidewalk. Huge percentage of them have 6ft fences, massive shrubbery, or buildings right at the sidewalk. Sightlines can be 100% blocked and it's a full-on blind approach. Most drivers treat these with safety in mind, i.e stopping right before the sidewalk. Naturally, since you can't see worth a damn whether a person is walking or child cycling from either side. These aren't like road intersections where one is gifted a buffer to see what's approaching. And unfortunately I've seen one too many drivers zip down the laneway and blast right onto the sidewalk, only really slowing down before coming onto the street.

I'd imagine some kind of narrow vertical stop sign, down low at driver level. It'd have to be thin since space is limited and we can't exactly fit a large octagon in there.

 

[Neutrino]

^Speed bumps would be much more effective