Rail: Ontario-Quebec High Speed Rail Study

[Woodbridge_Heights]

If Ontario and Quebec could bring Alberta on board and pitch the Calgary-Edmonton corridor along with the Quebec-Windsor corridor, then would there be much resistance from the feds? It would hit their home base (Western praries/Alberta) and the 2 projects would wind up touching, what, about 70-75% of the countries population?

In any case I support this project moving ahead with or with out federal dollars. Clearly the project is useful and needed. We need to stop laying blame on senior governments for lack of action, just go ahead with the plans you have and make do with the funds you have.

 

[MisterF]

I am all for it. I also think there's a case to be made for a south Prairie line: Winnipeg-Regina-Calgary. It's probably relatively cheap to build, and would help sell our new national vision of HSR.

With the possible exception of Edmonton-Calgary, the Prairies don't really have the population to support HSR. Upgrading conventional rail would work though. Just from looking at a map there's a few corridors that could support daily service:

-along Hwy 1 connecting Winnipeg, Regina, Calgary, and Banff
-the Yellowhead corridor through Regina, Saskatoon, and Edmonton
-north-south through Alberta.

Cross-border south of Winnipeg and Lethbridge might be feasible too.

Consider the 300km between Montreal and Albany; there are no major population centres except for perhaps Burlington, Vermont with 200,000. You are also trying to cut a straight path through 150 km of mountains on the west side or 200km of mountains on the Burlington side.

Comparatively, in the Windsor-Quebec corridor, population centres are much closer together and thanks to the st. lawrence-great lakes basin have relatively flat terrain to build on.

Not really. In the 400 km between Ottawa and Oshawa, the biggest city is Kingston, which isn't really any bigger than Burlington (bigger city, smaller metro area). It doesn't really matter as long as the major cities are big enough. There's not much between Paris and Lyon either.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Not really. In the 400 km between Ottawa and Oshawa, the biggest city is Kingston, which isn't really any bigger than Burlington (bigger city, smaller metro area). It doesn't really matter as long as the major cities are big enough. There's not much between Paris and Lyon either.

In a way it would be more ideal to have few smaller communities between the larger centres, no? There would be fewer calls for stops in these smaller communities which would wind up slowing the line down. Fewer communities (and as such stops) allows the line to focus on serving the main centres.

 

[MisterF]

In a way it would be more ideal to have few smaller communities between the larger centres, no? There would be fewer calls for stops in these smaller communities which would wind up slowing the line down. Fewer communities (and as such stops) allows the line to focus on serving the main centres.

That's why we have express trains and local trains. There would probably be stations at Oshawa, Cobourg, Belleville, etc. but only some trains would actually stop at those places. Commuters are an important market for HSR.

 

[dunkalunk]

Not really. In the 400 km between Ottawa and Oshawa, the biggest city is Kingston, which isn't really any bigger than Burlington (bigger city, smaller metro area). It doesn't really matter as long as the major cities are big enough. There's not much between Paris and Lyon either.

I'm not saying it shouldn't be built, I'm saying that there needs to be adequate connections at either end before it gets built, and the currently the Canadian side is lacking.

Now that you mention it, Montreal-New York has very much in common with Paris-Marseille TGV Line.

 

[urbanfan89]

For the Montreal/NYC line, it's more likely that the section south of Albany will be built to full HSR standards. Due to the sparse population, the section north of Albany could only be upgraded to 200km/h.

Still not bad at all considering the hassles of flying.

 

[AnarchoSocialist]

A Montreal - NYC link still seems a long ways off. Once HSR is up and running in the Quebec-Windsor and Northeast corridors I can see the idea being seriously explored. Until then I am not holding my breath.

kEiThZ: I can see why someone would be pessimistic about it all, and the longer you have been around the more reason for that view. But this time seems quite a bit different than previous moments when the idea has been discussed. I am pretty optimistic about HSR right now. But then again, I am making my school and career decisions on the premise that it does happen soon, so I guess my positive outlook on it all is not much of a surprise.

 

[nfitz]

But this time seems quite a bit different than previous moments when the idea has been discussed.

I thought it looked quite promising in the early 1980s before the Tories got into power, when there was serious planning going on. Even the 1989 revisitation seemed more promising. Everything since, including this, seems pretty superficial.

I wouldn't make too many decisions based on this. I personally know one engineer who started working on Montreal-Toronto high-speed rail when they graduated from engineering ... and revisited it many times during their career ... and they are turning 65 soon.

One day maybe. 2050? 2100? 2500?

 

[Automation Gallery]

Many cities will benefit if all goes as planned, but Chicago will be the biggest winner. The Midwest High Speed Rail Association has long advocated a Chicago-centric high-speed rail network. The Windy City will be linked to most of the Midwest's population centers, including Detroit, Cleveland, St. Louis, and Milwaukee.

The first phase of an Ontario HSR line should be Toronto-London-Windsor/Detroit.The US at the moment is close to approving a Chicago-Detroit line.It would make sense for us to be connected with their system. We should work together for our HSR systems to be compatible with each other, so that one day Via or Amtrak can roll on either side of the border with the same technology.
Hey it would be nice to travel Toronto-Chicago by rail in 3 hours.

Second Phase Toronto-Hamilton Fort Erie/Buffalo again connections can be done east to future HSR lines New York-Albany-Syracuse-Roshester or west to Clevland-Pittsburgh.

Third Phase Toronto Kingston-Montreal with future HSR connections south New York-Albany or east Boston-Albany

Phase 1 and Phase 2 would be approx 450 km of track half of the distance between the 900 km Windsor-Montreal It would be half the cost to build and it would connect with a much bigger population.

 

[allabootmatt]

A Montreal - NYC link still seems a long ways off. Once HSR is up and running in the Quebec-Windsor and Northeast corridors I can see the idea being seriously explored. Until then I am not holding my breath.

And yet just such a line is on the FRA's map of potential HSR corridors, while none reaching Toronto is. Instead, you have a line dead-ending at Buffalo. I have no idea if that oft-linked diagram has any actual planning basis in terms of what corridors might be eligible for President Obama's new HSR funding package, but if it does then Montreal-New York might be closer than we think.

 

[dunkalunk]

Where should high speed rail cross the Niagara river? At Niagara Falls or at Fort Erie-Buffalo?

 

[jn_12]

There's already a rail bridge crossing the Niagara in Niagara Falls. There isn't a train bridge in Fort Erie. Plus if I'm not mistaken, the river is much wider in Fort Erie than in Niagara Falls.

I think it makes sense to keep Niagara Falls as the crossing point. It makes it easier to potentially put a stop in Niagara Falls to cater to the tourists. Fort Erie is somewhat out of the way, and in terms of population really isn't worth it, especially since a crossing in Niagara Falls hits both Niagara Falls Canada and Niagara Falls NY, and can easily make its way south to Buffalo.

 

[Whoaccio]

Does anybody know how much of the Corridor's current ridership comes from and is going to a location outside of Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal? Is it really worth building to QC & Windsor? The one plus I can see about Windsor is it would be one bridge to downtown Detroit, which would add a cool 4 million people to the corridor.

 

[dunkalunk]

I agree, it would be interesting to see those numbers, but they cannot be taken at face value. VIA only operates 3 trains per direction per day on the north and south mainlines, and unless you are a single passenger with a student discount, it is in no way economical to take the train in both time and price. Auto traffic, greyhound ridership, and short haul airline flights also have to be taken into account. Check out the traffic on the 401 at the 407 outside Milton and you'll see what I mean.

 

[nfitz]

Does anybody know how much of the Corridor's current ridership comes from and is going to a location outside of Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal?

Probably not ... and those raising questions of where you'd put high speed rail across the Niagara River are in some strange fantasy world - at least in our lifetimes.