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That was meant to be aspirational as in I wish they were given the funds. Should have happened years ago, as well. Even before the HFR concept came onto the scene. Just a low-hanging pinch point that should have been addressed had various federal governments cared enough.
 
If Smiths Falls would get on side with co-funding relocating the CP operations, a flyover to the north and then bending around the east of the town would probably be easier than realigning VIA, it seems to me. But that's "a hard thing is sometimes easier than another hard thing"
 
dowlingm said:
If Smiths Falls would get on side with co-funding relocating the CP operations, a flyover to the north and then bending around the east of the town would probably be easier than realigning VIA, it seems to me. But that's "a hard thing is sometimes easier than another hard thing"
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Where do you think a town of under $10,000 would get the funds to do such a thing, unless you mean co-funding means 'here's a $20'?
 
lenaitch said:
Where do you think a town of under $10,000 would get the funds to do such a thing, unless you mean co-funding means 'here's a $20'?
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I was thinking more the possibility of the Town having some relevant landholdings to offer CP for alignment or a new yard. If the CP yard moved toward the outskirts, this would theoretically free up developable land - particularly if the removal of the CP conflict led to creation of an Ottawa direction commuter service. But yes, much of the actual money would need to be provided by the feds as a grant or through VIA, and hopefully some more from the province.

However, this is purely notional - we see with Winnipeg or White Rock BC that rail relocation is an undertaking often requiring multiple decades to contemplate let alone implement.
 
dowlingm said:
I was thinking more the possibility of the Town having some relevant landholdings to offer CP for alignment or a new yard. If the CP yard moved toward the outskirts, this would theoretically free up developable land - particularly if the removal of the CP conflict led to creation of an Ottawa direction commuter service. But yes, much of the actual money would need to be provided by the feds as a grant or through VIA, and hopefully some more from the province.

However, this is purely notional - we see with Winnipeg or White Rock BC that rail relocation is an undertaking often requiring multiple decades to contemplate let alone implement.
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According to online maps, the yard is already partially at the fringe or out-of-town. The concept of 'developable land' takes on a different context in smaller communities in the sense that you need some reason to develop. The population has been essentially flat since the 1960s and the largest current employer seems to be a legal grow-op.

Larger municipalities struggle to relocate railyards. Ones that have been in place since the steam era suffer from potential soil contamination, which adds to the cost.

Spending serious coin to add a few minutes to a few passenger train would take deep public pockets. HFR; however, might change things.
 
dowlingm said:
If Smiths Falls would get on side with co-funding relocating the CP operations, a flyover to the north and then bending around the east of the town would probably be easier than realigning VIA, it seems to me. But that's "a hard thing is sometimes easier than another hard thing"
Click to expand...
The HFR proposal has the Via mainline remaining north of the CPKC line at all times, avoiding the need to have any grade separation at all. As long as the HFR option remains on the table, a flyover wouldn't be an attractive solution since it could become superfluous in the future.
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I've consolidated the new Ottawa-Toronto timetable including the new train 641:

OT-TO_2024-06.PNG


The stopping pattern of 641 seems strange. The intent is presumably to provide a commuter service to Toronto similar to the pre-pandemic train 651 (shown in green below), yet it skips some of the potential commuter towns, namely Napanee and Trenton. Meanwhile it stops in places like Smiths Falls ridiculously early in the morning.
OT-TO_2018.PNG


It makes sense for train 641 to skip Guildwood since that allows it to overtake the GO local service despite the shorter passing track due to Ontario Line construction. That local service is also every 15 minutes now, versus every 30 pre-pandemic (and there are no longer any GO express trains).

The stopping pattern that would have made most sense to me would be: Ottawa, Fallowfield, non stop to Kingston, all stops to Port Hope, non-stop to Toronto.
 
The first reason I can think of is that Napanee is a close stop to Kingston and Trenton a close stop to Belleville. There's only about 15 minutes between the former and 10 between the latter. Smiths Fall is 30 minutes away from the next station in either direction.

I imagine they stop in Port Hope and/or Cobourg because the boardings warrant it. If I had to guess i'd say Napanee and Trenton were by far the quietest stations b/w Toronto and Ottawa.
 
Mihairokov said:
The first reason I can think of is that Napanee is a close stop to Kingston and Trenton a close stop to Belleville. There's only about 15 minutes between the former and 10 between the latter. Smiths Fall is 30 minutes away from the next station in either direction.

I imagine they stop in Port Hope and/or Cobourg because the boardings warrant it. If I had to guess i'd say Napanee and Trenton were by far the quietest stations b/w Toronto and Ottawa.
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Napanee and Trenton are definitely the least used stations between Kingston and Toronto, if only because hardly any trains stop there.

But unless you're proposing to actually close down those stations, at least one train needs to stop at them. So the question is which train would be most useful to stop. In the pre-pandemic schedule, the westbound train that stopped was Train 651 - the commuter train into Toronto. For the way back eastbound, there were two trains making all stops from Toronto to Kingston, departing at 17:40 and 18:40:
TO-OT_2018.PNG

Which makes sense - travel into Toronto for a workday is probably the highest-ridership trip type at the station. Although the stations were completely useless for any other trip type, at least they did one thing well.

In the current schedule, those stations aren't really useful for any trip type, trains just stop at seemingly arbitrary times. The earliest you can arrive in Toronto from Napanee or Trenton is 13:18, which only gives you a few hours in Toronto before you need to head back, considering the last eastbound train departs Toronto at 18:32.
 
I would assume that adding a stop at stations with single platforms is much more difficult than at those with multiple platforms. For instance, an all-stop train will have to be in Fallowfield Smiths Falls, Gananoque, Napannee, Trenton Junction and Port Hope on the Southern track, which drastically limits operational flexibility…
 
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Urban Sky said:
I would assume that adding a stop at stations with single platforms is much more difficult than at those with multiple platforms. For instance, an all-stop train will have to be in Fallowfield, Gananoque, Napannee, Trenton Junction and Port Hope on the Southern track, which drastically limits operational flexibility…
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Fallowfield doesn't matter because trains serve the station from both tracks and it's single track between there and Brockville regardless.

Trenton Junction is actually on the north track, not the southern one, which is a big nuisance. The old train 48 needed to be on the south track at Port Hope, switch to the north for Trenton, back to the south for Napanee and back north at Brockville.

So to reduce switching conflicts it would be good to relocate Trenton such that the platform is on the south track, like Port Hope, Napanee and Gananoque. That way in the morning the westbound commuter trains can stick to the south track, with eastbound trains on the north, and vice versa in the PM peak.

Current configuration:
cnkingston.png
 
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My anecdotal experience is that riders at those stations (Napanee/Trenton) aren't taking the train to commute for work - they're taking the train to visit Toronto or to go further elsewhere. I'm not convinced they're taking the train return the same day. The largest groups on the Ottawa-Toronto trains are::

Ottawa <-> Toronto group (typically Car 5 and business)
Kingston <-> Toronto students (typically Car 3 or 4)
Ottawa <-> Kingston folks
Belleville <-> Toronto travellers
Toronto commuters Cobourg-wes, especially from Oshawa

Occasionally you'll get Belleville <-> Kingston or Gananoque <-> Brockville riders but they're pretty rare. The vast majority of riders are using Toronto, Belleville, Kingston, and Ottawa stations. The in-betweens can be served as needed.
 
Mihairokov said:
My anecdotal experience is that riders at those stations (Napanee/Trenton) aren't taking the train to commute for work - they're taking the train to visit Toronto or to go further elsewhere. I'm not convinced they're taking the train return the same day. The largest groups on the Ottawa-Toronto trains are::

Ottawa <-> Toronto group (typically Car 5 and business)
Kingston <-> Toronto students (typically Car 3 or 4)
Ottawa <-> Kingston folks
Belleville <-> Toronto travellers
Toronto commuters Cobourg-wes, especially from Oshawa

Occasionally you'll get Belleville <-> Kingston or Gananoque <-> Brockville riders but they're pretty rare. The vast majority of riders are using Toronto, Belleville, Kingston, and Ottawa stations. The in-betweens can be served as needed.
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When is your anecdotal experience from? Because if it's post-pandemic, then the commuter train service hasn't existed, which would entirely explain why people aren't commuting on the train.
 
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