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'Quebec Seperation Unstoppable'

"Personally, if seperation did happen, it would not be doom and gloom and destroy Canada. "

I think you're being naive. I could easily see BC, Alberta and Ontarian washing their hands of this country should Quebec secede. Ontario would be left with 55% of the nation's population. Alberta and BC would be uncomfortable with Ontario controlling a majority of the Parliament (they already grumble about Ontario's 35% stake), and Ontarians wouldn't be willing to accept being the nation's paymaster as well as being grossly underrepresented in Parliament.

Beyond that, once the precedent is set by Quebec's departure, the idea secession won't be so shocking to Canadians, especially as "Canada" would cease to exist as it currently does in the popular imagination.

Canada could easily disintegrate. And frankly, I would support it. If Canada dies, I don't think Ontario should continue to carry the level of dead weight it is now. Equalisation is currently tantamount to a 4% tax on Ontario's economic activity shipped off to regions that don't even trade all that much with Ontario. I think that 4% of GDP could easily be better spent in Ontario.
 
Anyone who does not want to be part of Canada should be free to leave.

Canada will be at its strongest with whom choses to remain.
 
Beyond that, once the precedent is set by Quebec's departure, the idea secession won't be so shocking to Canadians, especially as "Canada" would cease to exist as it currently does in the popular imagination.

I think that there is the chance that Canada could have some difficulties, but there is one thing to remember. Even if a referendum does end up in a Yes victory, what happens beyond that does not have to lead to succession necessarily. As was mentioned before an EU type region could replace current federalism. Or maybe Quebec could be a special 'administration state' in which its only role in the federal government is judicial and economic policies with limited representation in the house of commons (far fetched yes but still an idea). A referendum is only the first part of the process and what comes out of the talks after that could be something totally different than succession for Quebec or the destruction of Canada.
 
If the PQ is leading the negotiations, don't kid yourself. They won't settle for anything less than full nationhood for Quebec. That is, after all, the point of the exercise (ethnic nationalism).
 
There will be no Union of Canada a la Europe. There will be ONE Canada and its protectorites if they wish.
 
Wow, I didn't know that crook Gagliano's words had this much weight.

Quebec ain't gonna separate... not in the near future anyway. It would be too difficult a process to win a fair referendum, get the Feds to agree to negotiate, deal with the natives to the north and their largest city that would likely resist quite vigorously.
 
Not only Montreal, but also places like Gatineau where the economy depends on the federal government. And there's some places in the Eastern Townships that would put up quite the fight too. Not that I'd ever want to see it happen, but the politics of Quebec if it ever did separate would be very interesting to watch.
 
The tide is turning. Although I believe the Northern Quebec First Nations people would drive a hard bargain with Quebec, they would eventually support it (for a price -- i.e. a piece of the energy price). The transmission lines would travel through a sovereign Quebec to the United States anyway.

Besides -- I am guessing that I would be able to maintain my Quebec citizenship :b

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54% in Quebec back sovereignty
By RHÉAL SÉGUIN
Globe and Mail

Wednesday, April 27, 2005 Updated at 6:22 AM EST

From Wednesday's Globe and Mail

Quebec — Support for sovereignty in Quebec has broken through the 50-per-cent barrier to its highest level since 1998 amid growing controversy over the sponsorship scandal. A new poll shows 54 per cent of decided voters would support sovereignty in a referendum that offered an economic and political partnership with the rest of Canada -- the same question asked in the Oct. 30, 1995, referendum.

Polls over the past year asking similar questions showed support of between 44 and 49 per cent for sovereignty.

The survey, conducted by Léger Marketing for The Globe and Mail and Le Devoir, comes as a new controversy erupted in Quebec after Michel Robert, the province's Chief Justice, said separatists should not be appointed to the bench.

The last time support for sovereignty was this high was in October, 1998, the pollsters say. Quebec was then weeks away from a provincial election, which was won by Lucien Bouchard of the Parti Québécois.

This survey, conducted April 21 to 24, shows 76 per cent of voters felt betrayed by the actions of the former prime minister and the Liberal Party of Canada after the 1995 referendum on sovereignty.

That opinion was shared by a majority of federalists regardless of their political allegiance, according to the poll.

"The sponsorship program, which contributed to undermining support for sovereignty between 1997 and 2002, is now having the opposite effect," said pollster Jean-Marc Léger. "In fact it is helping rebuild the sovereignty movement."

The survey found 37 per cent of respondents said the scandal and the allegations at the Gomery Commission motivated their decision to support sovereignty. Even among those who described themselves as federalist, 13 per cent said the inquiry would motivate them to vote for sovereignty.

Almost half -- 49 per cent of voters -- believe that Quebec will one day become a sovereign country while 41 per cent said it won't and 10 per cent said they didn't know.

And 49 per cent expressed a desire to have another referendum, while 46 per cent said they were against it. The remaining 5 per cent were undecided.

"People are no longer reluctant to want to vote in a referendum. The winning conditions are beginning to take shape if English Canada does not act quickly," Mr. Léger said.

However, support for sovereignty appears to be more a reflection of Quebeckers' anger toward the federal government than a deep-seated desire to achieve political independence.

When asked if by voting for sovereignty they still wanted Quebec to continue to be a part of Canada, 56 per cent of respondents said yes and 40 per cent responded no, with 4 per cent undecided.

Renewed federalism remained the preferred option for a sizable portion of the population, according to the poll, but voters are still deeply divided over the issue.

When asked if they believed in the possibility of renewed federalism in which Quebec would have its "rightful place in Canada," about 48 per cent expressed confidence it could happen; 45 per cent said no and 8 per cent refused to answer or didn't know.

"What this poll really says is that Canada still remains the first choice of a majority of Quebeckers. But if there is no offer of renewed federalism, Quebeckers are prepared to go to the extreme and vote for sovereignty. In other words they will choose sovereignty by default," Mr. Léger said.

The Bloc Québécois appears poised to capitalize on the backlash against the federal Liberals. The poll says it now leads by 31 percentage points.

After distribution of the undecided voters in a proportion equal to the expressed voting intentions, 53 per cent said they would vote for the Bloc, 22 per cent for the Liberals, 12 per cent for the Conservatives, 9 per cent for the NDP and 3 per cent for other parties.

"If the Bloc surpasses the crucial 50-per-cent mark in the next election, it could have a considerable impact on the PQ vote and on a potential referendum on sovereignty," Mr. Léger said.

Léger Marketing, which during the 1995 referendum accurately predicted the final tally in which federalists won with 50.6 per cent of the vote, conducted interviews with 1,008 eligible voters throughout Quebec. The poll is considered accurate within 3.1 percentage points, 19 times out 20.
 
This is the first thing I or presumably anyone else has seen in many years which suggests that they actually may - barely - have the numbers to pull it off. Two obvious questions leap to mind: how much of this is just temporary anger over the scandal, which will cool in the coming years, and how do these numbers compare to other pre-referendum polls? Does anyone know what kind of support for separation polls indicated in, say, late '94 or '79? There's always a difference between poll numbers and actual results - does anyone know what 'yes' percentage in surveys will likely translate into an actual vote for separation? At what point should the numbers be telling us to be genuinely worried? There's no need to freak out because of this, of course, but it's not a good sign.
 
37% who voted 'Yes', said it was a result of the Sponsorship Scandal. Shows you how the parties are spinning this to the public.
 
The talk among seperatists seems to be that 60% is the number that will indicate that at the polls the 'yes' side can win. They count a certain amount of people pulling back as happened last time when Trudeau and Chretien entered into the battle.

I think you will find this number is unlikely to change anytime soon hovering around this mark. The PQ is keeping quiet for the msot part on the seperatism issue and media coverage of the topic is still rather low key, even in Quebec.

Most people in the seperatist camp know that the next referendum will decide ultimately the fate of the movement, one way or another, and because of this I think you unlikely to se any real strong public adress on this issue at the momment. The idea of putting the issue as part of the next provincial election platform (ie a vote for the the PQ is a vote for independence is still being floated around). While it is more than likely that the PQ will jump on the next opportunity to call a referendum (in 2 years after the next provincial election) I also would not be surprised to see them hold off for a while and opt for a slightly different route on the issue.
 
Can't always tell with the numbers in polls..... The most common response from the federal government is to use "scare tactics" -- as opposed to selling a dream. This usually lowers the "for" numbers, but sooner or later this tactic will likely fail.
 
"When asked if by voting for sovereignty they still wanted Quebec to continue to be a part of Canada, 56 per cent of respondents said yes"

This begs the question: do Quebeckers understand the meaning of the word sovereignty? Furthermore, what makes them think they can have their cake and eat it, too?

It seems many Quebeckers suffer from the delusion that Canada (ie, Ontario) would happily continue to cut equalisation cheques to Quebec after that province gave the finger to this country. Do they honestly believe that Canadians would agree to such a deal? Do they believe any federal government would be willing to agree to such a deal, knowing they would be crucified by the electorate? Is it the separatist politicians who are filling their heads with this nonsense?
 
^ Just goes to show that sovereignty polls are to be taken with a grain of salt. Like I said, it ain't gonna happen.
 
a few things:

this poll shows that support for sovereignty is rising only because of the sponsorship scandal. it's extremely soft support -- as was noted above, more than half of the people who said they would vote "yes" on a referendum ballot also said that they didn't actually want quebec to separate. that makes it pretty obvious that saying "i support sovereignty" is really just a way of expressing frustration or disgust with the federal government, not necessarily support for an independent quebec.

there is still three years left in the PLQ's term, which means there is at least four years until the next referendum, and that presumes the PQ wins the next election, which is far from guaranteed. by then the highly emotional response to the scandal, which has triggered this latest bout of sovereigntist fever, will have died down.

so really, the only thing this new poll indicates is that the liberals are totally and absolutely screwed in quebec in the next federal election -- but we knew that anyway. whether it actually means there is a surge in serious support of separation is doubtful.
 

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