Premier Doug Ford's Ontario

[Thinker]

I could definitely see Caledon seeing big tax increases in a Peel dissolution scenario. They have a lot of Peel Regional Roads that they would have to take care of with a much smaller tax base. The roads in Mississauga and Brampton I don't really see having any impact.

Overall though, I'm curious how they determined these figures. Which services would have continued to be regional and which ones would have gone to the cities? There's no way they seriously looked at breaking up Peel Police, and that's the biggest item that Peel Region pays for. Although if you went from 1 police force to 3, then yes, that would be very expensive.

Yep, my son lived in Inglewood, just north of Brampton, their property taxes were much higher than we pay in Toronto and got less services.

 

[Dan416]

Like so many other things, no details of any dissolution were provided because none were worked out. Under the announced plan (term used loosely), the region would cease to exist so everything in Mississauga and Brampton would have rolled over to stand-alone single-tier cites. Caledon could also be stand-alone or perhaps join one of the surrounding counties or York Region.

Breaking up is hard - and expensive - to do. That's probably why discussions in places such as Chatham-Kent and Kawartha Lakes went nowhere, and they were much less established.

The mayors specifically stated they didn’t want to touch Peel Police. But without knowing the details, it’s impossible to say if it’s on the table, and it’s the biggest ticket item and would have the biggest impact in a regional dissolution. If they can come to an agreement on maintaining Peel Police (or more accurately, Mississauga-Brampton Police).

If the Peel dissolution was just Mississauga and Brampton becoming independent and Caledon just being integrated into Dufferin County instead, I’d imagine the discussion could be going differently.

 

[lenaitch]

The mayors specifically stated they didn’t want to touch Peel Police. But without knowing the details, it’s impossible to say if it’s on the table, and it’s the biggest ticket item and would have the biggest impact in a regional dissolution. If they can come to an agreement on maintaining Peel Police (or more accurately, Mississauga-Brampton Police).

If the Peel dissolution was just Mississauga and Brampton becoming independent and Caledon just being integrated into Dufferin County instead, I’d imagine the discussion could be going differently.

Not wanting to touch something would be out of their hands if the regional level government was dissolved - they'd have to deal with it somehow. As you say, it could be re-branded; although I'm not even sure that would necessary - it's still in the history County of Peel. They could call it any number of things.

Since a large element of the Mississauga-Brampton spat revolved around how much each paid to the regional government, that fight would still be an issue with this very large ticket item. If they can readily find common ground on a line item that represents about 25% of the regional budget because breaking it up would be too hard, then it seems the spat was more for posturing.

 

[afransen]

Just wait until we have autonomous vehicles to see how much governments will clamp down on 80+ drivers. As it stands now, Service Ontario bends over backwards to keep old people driving. I remember an old man being coached on his test by a Service Ontario worker while I was going my G1 written test a couple decades ago. He didn't know what the hospital sign was, or what a railroad crossing sign was. Nevermind which way to turn your wheels when parking on a hill with or without a curb.

 

[afransen]

Not wanting to touch something would be out of their hands if the regional level government was dissolved - they'd have to deal with it somehow. As you say, it could be re-branded; although I'm not even sure that would necessary - it's still in the history County of Peel. They could call it any number of things.

Since a large element of the Mississauga-Brampton spat revolved around how much each paid to the regional government, that fight would still be an issue with this very large ticket item. If they can readily find common ground on a line item that represents about 25% of the regional budget because breaking it up would be too hard, then it seems the spat was more for posturing.

I think it's fair to say that if dissolving Peel would result in a much higher tax increase in Brampton than Mississauga, Brampton is likely undercontributing.

 

[Dan416]

Not wanting to touch something would be out of their hands if the regional level government was dissolved - they'd have to deal with it somehow. As you say, it could be re-branded; although I'm not even sure that would necessary - it's still in the history County of Peel. They could call it any number of things.

Since a large element of the Mississauga-Brampton spat revolved around how much each paid to the regional government, that fight would still be an issue with this very large ticket item. If they can readily find common ground on a line item that represents about 25% of the regional budget because breaking it up would be too hard, then it seems the spat was more for posturing.

According to the graphic here, 43% of Peel's budget goes to Peel Police. But I imagine this excludes education.

2024 Budget details

The Budget makes important investments in community housing, infrastructure, community safety, paramedics, seniors services, and climate change.

www.peelregion.ca

 

[lenaitch]

Just wait until we have autonomous vehicles to see how much governments will clamp down on 80+ drivers.

This sentence is internally inconsistent. If true autonomy arrives, we'll all be merely passengers.

According to the graphic here, 43% of Peel's budget goes to Peel Police. But I imagine this excludes education.

2024 Budget details

The Budget makes important investments in community housing, infrastructure, community safety, paramedics, seniors services, and climate change.

www.peelregion.ca

The one doc I saw earlier showed 24%. Regardless, big chunk - probably the biggest.

 

[afransen]

This sentence is internally inconsistent. If true autonomy arrives, we'll all be merely passengers.



The one doc I saw earlier showed 24%. Regardless, big chunk - probably the biggest.

For a long-ish period of time, autonomy will be an option, not mandatory. The shift to it being mandatory (if it happens at all), will start with becoming less tolerant of degraded driving ability toward end of life. The whole system is loath to take old folks' licenses away as it deprives them of their freedom and independence. That impulse will be weakened by the availability of affordable AV/robotaxi service.

 

[Towered]

Just wait until we have autonomous vehicles to see how much governments will clamp down on 80+ drivers. As it stands now, Service Ontario bends over backwards to keep old people driving. I remember an old man being coached on his test by a Service Ontario worker while I was going my G1 written test a couple decades ago. He didn't know what the hospital sign was, or what a railroad crossing sign was. Nevermind which way to turn your wheels when parking on a hill with or without a curb.

They still allowed my dad to drive at 94 even with lousy sight in one eye.

 

[allengeorge]

They still allowed my dad to drive at 94 even with lousy sight in one eye.

My impression is that - in general - society (licensing, courts, etc) treat driving as a right in Ontario, not a privilege. I chalk this down as the reason why serial offenders are often given fairly short suspensions as opposed to having their license revoked permanently.

 

[PinkLucy]

Absolutely. I was involved in a court case where the judge expressed his astonishment at the number of infractions the defendant had while still maintaining a license. Fortunately, the judge changed that.

 

[Admiral Beez]

My impression is that - in general - society (licensing, courts, etc) treat driving as a right in Ontario, not a privilege.

The lack of alternative transportation is a big issue for seniors. Once you rightfully take away their car and license you're essentially sentencing them to a prolonged death on the couch.

Back in my 20s when we bought this house in Cabbagetown my wife and I said that this will be a good place to grow old in, since when we can no longer drive we'll have easy walkable access to the streetcars, buses and subway, and many of the country's top hospitals are just down the road on University. Now that we're in our 50s and we're envisioning retirement in a decade or so, we're definitely going to drop down to one car, and then as we age, likely none.

 

[zang]

From https://www.thestar.com/politics/ontario-considering-enhanced-road-test-for-drivers-over-80-auditor-general-report/article_3f94f47a-935e-56db-af07-7b2d4a648104.html

Yeah, it's insane that a huge portion of adults in this country get to drive 6000lb SUVs at lethal speeds based entirely on a test they likely took when they were 16.

Regular retesting and stricter penalties would solve a lot of our problems, regardless of the age of the driver.

 

[Richard White]

The lack of alternative transportation is a big issue for seniors. Once you rightfully take away their car and license you're essentially sentencing them to a prolonged death on the couch.

Back in my 20s when we bought this house in Cabbagetown my wife and I said that this will be a good place to grow old in, since when we can no longer drive we'll have easy walkable access to the streetcars, buses and subway, and many of the country's top hospitals are just down the road on University. Now that we're in our 50s and we're envisioning retirement in a decade or so, we're definitely going to drop down to one car, and then as we age, likely none.

My Grandmother is 87 this year and moved out to Pickering in her 50s because she wanted to be closer to Toronto (She was living between Lindsay and Port Perry).

She has been driving for over 30 years and because of health issues does not drive as much. She is lost without her car because despite living along Kingston Road she cannot go out to her Seniors Club, Shopping, etc.

Without her car, she cannot go out and socialize and that is one reason she wanted to go into a home. She knows she may not be able to drive much longer and the thought of being stuck in the house with nobody to talk with is too much.

 

[zang]

The lack of alternative transportation is a big issue for seniors. Once you rightfully take away their car and license you're essentially sentencing them to a prolonged death on the couch.

Only in part because we've done squat to help them out in the first place. Hell, it's almost 2024 and we still don't have every subway station fully accessible. Micromobility vehicles like the Canta could do wonders here, but those rely on safer streets in general and a decent (ie; useful) network of protected bike lanes.

And then there's people like my mother, who until her dying day always wanted to go back and live in rural Ontario. She couldn't shovel a driveway, let alone the path to her car. So far from health care that she always asked her kids to drive her, and zero nearby support if something happened. It's something I see with a lot of boomers; that there's a general denial of how much they've aged. Some think as long as they have a car, they can live wherever and however they used to; and that's really just not the case. I always tried to convince her to move into the city, and she always saw the benefit of a "15 minute city" experience when she was here. But it was never enough to lure her away from "needing" a car.

"Needing" a car meant spending on average $10,000 a year that could've been used to pay for the difference in rent she was paying in Waterloo and have money left over. A ZipCar membership could've made up for those odd times she needed to go visit somewhere impractical with other transit methods. But it never happened.