Premier Doug Ford's Ontario

[pman]

No they're not. They're hired by contract. And what they get paid is based on how many hours they work. A specialty means a higher grade of pay per time worked. Just like many other contract workers.

You don't know any teachers, do you?

I play tennis with some retired teachers, so yes I do. The ability to take an indexed pension in their late fifties, while continuing to teach part time if they want it, makes it a pretty sweet deal.

 

[Northern Light]

In respect of whether 'courses' should be paid for and how that compares w/the private sector.........

Many moons ago, when I first got out of University and worked for a private sector employer where staff had to maintain professional licenses......

The way it worked was this:

1) Course work to obtain your license you had to pay for up front; though the company would partially reimburse you upon success.

2)Course work that was mandatory to maintain your license was fully paid for by the business.

3)Upgrades to your license status, you had to pay for; however they automatically got you a pay raise, which would effectively reimburse you within 2 months.

Using that logic; (which one need not, we could debate that), teachers should have the cost of any mandatory courses paid for by the province; but if they choose to get their M.A./Ph.D, then they pay for that on their
own, but receive a higher salary upon being credentialed.

 

[BurlOak]

Their salaries are in line with ours - just spread over the working months. It’s not like they’re missing two months of pay in the overall scheme of things. Annually they’re getting well in the high 5 figures.

Don’t provide me teacher union propaganda to change my opinion. Based on first hand experience it ain’t changing...

What is a teacher salary?

I don't understand the pay scales that well, but appears to be $72k to $99k. If we take the average, that's $86k per year.

For an Ontario engineer - about $ 75,337 to $106,953. After 4 years, typically make to it the floor at $75k. Then assume 6 years x 3% increase = $90k. I'd guess this is probably the median.

So a teacher has 20 sick days vs. 6 for engineer.
Has (2 months + 1 week march break + 2 weeks Christmas vacation = 12 weeks total =) 60 days vacation vs. 25 days for engineer.
Teacher works 8 to 3 (7 hours - which includes lunch), while engineer works 7.25 hours plus unpaid lunch (as it should be).
Both are salaried and periodically have to work a bit extra (either at exam time, or if a critical project is finishing).

Totals: teacher = $73 per hour worked.
engineer = $54 per hour worked.

Teacher makes 35% more. Beyond 15 years, the engineers salary can continue to go up, and their vacation also goes up, so likely at 25 years, they make the same.

 

[W. K. Lis]

How much was Doug Ford paid while working at the family business, Deco Labels & Tags? Don't forget that Doug Ford dropped out of school. Another school dropout off the street wouldn't be paid as much as Doug would have been.

If Doug had been taking some night courses, most likely the night school & book costs would have been paid by Deco Labels & Tags.

 

[Northern Light]

What is a teacher salary?

I don't understand it that well, but appears to be $72k to $99k. If we take the average, that's $86k.

For an Ontario engineer - about $ 75,337 to $106,953. After 4 years, typically make to it the floor at $75k. Then assume 6 years x 3% increase = $90k. I'd guess this is probably the median.

So a teacher, with 25 sick days vs. 6, 20 vacation days vs. 2 months + 1 week march break + 2 weeks christmas (12 weeks total = 60 days).

I guarantee you teachers are working through a portion of those breaks. Not all, to be fair.

But in my experience, most of March Break, and one week of Christmas are lost to marking and lesson plans.

Teachers actually have to report before students in the fall, typically one week earlier, but usually start a few days before that.

So a fairer assessment 'time off' would be in the range of 8 weeks.

Lets also add here, if labour standards were in line w/the EU, engineers would get more time off than they do, reducing the scope of that difference.

 

[SunriseChampion]

I house people and get paid less than engineers and teachers. That doesn't mean I begrudge teachers their pay...it means I think I'm worth more. Unless, of course, shelter has lost its status as a necessity. Which if it has, I may be overpaid.

That being said, teachers have to babysit all sort of miscreant youth, why wouldn't they deserve decent pay?

I myself contributed to the greying of many a teacher....and I was only a 4/10 on the little shit-disturber scale.

 

[zang]

What is a teacher salary?

I don't understand the pay scales that well, but appears to be $72k to $99k. If we take the average, that's $86k per year.

First thing, starting pay for teachers in Ontario is in the mid $40k range, so you’re about $30k off:

https://ett.ca/salary-grid-for-tdsb-elementary-teachers/

Second, there is no middle management in teaching. One can move up to principal or vice principal, but those positions are few and far between. So, while one’s pay can go up after years of work, a teacher’s title doesn’t change. This vastly skews pay numbers, with lifelong teachers (and all the pay increases that come with 30+ years of work), having the exact same position and title as someone fresh off of their masters of education.

Teacher works 8 to 3 (7 hours - which includes lunch), while engineer works 7.25 hours plus unpaid lunch (as it should be).

Just because school is over doesn’t mean teachers are done working. We pick up our daughter from an in-school day care at just after 5pm. Many teachers are still there, including hers. In fact, her teacher also runs several extracurriculars like junior choir. Teachers in Ontario aren’t paid for extracurriculars, which is why they’ve been used as a bargaining chip in union disputes. It’s something that they can take away that affects the school and gets parents’ attention, but doesn’t affect the general education of the kids, or violate their work agreements.

Also, my wife worked HR for an engineering firm. Not sure where you work, but at her workplace, engineers were paid for lunch breaks.

 

[BurlOak]

First thing, starting pay for teachers in Ontario is in the mid $40k range, so you’re about $30k off:

If you want to compare starting salaries, the starting engineer salary is $52k.

Also, my wife worked HR for an engineering firm. Not sure where you work, but at her workplace, engineers were paid for lunch breaks.

The the government engineering I was referring to. 7.25 work hours per day.

 

[kEiThZ]

If teaching is such a terrible gig why is there so much demand to get into it?

I've dated teachers. I've had them as friends. And married one who left the profession out of frustration. None of the actual or aspirant teachers I know has ever complained about pay. Working conditions always seem a bigger concern.

Here's my take. It's the only profession where you can do a year or two beyond your BA and get that kind of job security and benefits. That's not even possible elsewhere in government.

Now I don't begrudge teachers their pay and benefits. But I certainly do think we can better value for money out of them. My biggest complain has always been the ridiculously wasteful 72 min long high school classes. Make the classes 1 hr long and make high school students take 5 courses a day, with teachers rquired to teach 3-4. Make the extra curriculars and tutorials part of their contract. Get more productivity out of the system. And if it works out that they average 10 hr days during the school year, then make sure they truly get at least a month off in the summer with absolutely no PD or other commitments.

 

[narduch]

Also, my wife worked HR for an engineering firm. Not sure where you work, but at her workplace, engineers were paid for lunch breaks.

Really? I work in the engineering consulting field and I have never had paid lunch and I don't know anyone else that does.

 

[zang]

Really? I work in the engineering consulting field and I have never had paid lunch and I don't know anyone else that does.

It wasn't explicitly outlined as "paid lunch" at her firm, but salary calculations were done based on 8 hour work days, not 7.25 hours.

 

[zang]

If you want to compare starting salaries, the starting engineer salary is $52k.

The the government engineering I was referring to. 7.25 work hours per day.

Nice of you to completely ignore the whole thing about it not being 8-3 for the vast majority of teachers, or your nearly doubling of their starting salary. Well, you've always seemed to ignore facts that don't support your bias. But then again, you troll this forum, so...

The only person I can think of at my daughter's school who works that little is the receptionist.

 

[steveintoronto]

Really? I work in the engineering consulting field and I have never had paid lunch and I don't know anyone else that does.

Whether teachers' contracts cover eating breaks or not, here's the law:

Eating periods
An employee must not work for more than five hours in a row without getting a 30-minute eating period (meal break) free from work. However, if the employer and employee agree, the eating period can be split into two eating periods within every five consecutive hours. Together these must total at least 30 minutes. This agreement can be oral or in writing.

Meal breaks are unpaid unless the employee's employment contract requires payment. Even if the employer pays for meal breaks, the employee must be free from work in order for the time to be considered a meal break.

Note: Meal breaks, whether paid or unpaid, are not considered hours of work, and are not counted toward overtime.

https://www.ontario.ca/document/your-guide-employment-standards-act-0/hours-work#section-6

But worry not! Ford will be along shortly to piss all over that too..."Open for Business" (Slavery and Prostitution welcome)

 

[BurlOak]

Nice of you to completely ignore the whole thing about it not being 8-3 for the vast majority of teachers, or your nearly doubling of their starting salary. Well, you've always seemed to ignore facts that don't support your bias. But then again, you troll this forum, so...

The only person I can think of at my daughter's school who works that little is the receptionist.

I had assume a 10 year seniority person. It appeared in my "engineer" calculation, but i didn't state it explicitly.
In elementary school, when i walked the kids to school they went early (and stayed late) to play with friends.
the School Bell rang at 8:20. At 8:00, I would say that less than 20% of the staff was there. When I left the kid, the lot was full at 8:25.
The School Bell rang at 2:50 to end the day. by 3:10, less than 10% of the staff was there.
And at lunch I knew so many mothers that volunteered in the class during lunch.

 

[W. K. Lis]

I guarantee you teachers are working through a portion of those breaks. Not all, to be fair.

But in my experience, most of March Break, and one week of Christmas are lost to marking and lesson plans.

Teachers actually have to report before students in the fall, typically one week earlier, but usually start a few days before that.

So a fairer assessment 'time off' would be in the range of 8 weeks.

Lets also add here, if labour standards were in line w/the EU, engineers would get more time off than they do, reducing the scope of that difference.

Not all teachers can work as superheros during the night.

From link.