Planned Sprawl in the GTA

[Midtown Urbanist]

In terms of a new population centre on Lake Huron or Lake Erie, it becomes a harder question because the coast lines are so far out of the provincial paths of commerce. For Lake Erie, I figure the closest shot would be seeing London sprawl towards the lake and eventually merge with St. Thomas and Port Stanley. I see it being more viable on Lake Huron, with Wasaga Beach, Collingwood, and Barrie all eventually growing into one area.

I've always thought that Own Sound would be a good spot for one as it's out in a bit of a population desert in North-western southern Ontario. North of Orangeville there is a huge rural population base but without any really major population centres.

The problem is that its sort of isolated, much like the failed "townsend". The only reason you have to go there is to go there.

Most of Ontario's mid-sized cities are successful because of their location along the main corridors of trade between the major centres.

A typical strategy to try and move pressure off a burgeoning city is to move government jobs away from it. It seems to be the best way of taking the pressure off, but has been met with mixed success in the past. Perhaps its time that Ontario move it's capital and shift most of it's provincial employment to a new city on the shores of Lake Erie or Huron? It would have to be a huge undertaking, for sure.

Correct that neither shoreline is along "paths of commerce". It is unclear how you would bring employment to a new population centre, and that ended up being partially the failure of the Townsend venture.

As for a new centre along Lake Huron, I always thought that the towns of Port Elgin and Southampton could sprawl into each other. Concentrate employment and commercial activity along Hwy-21 between the two downtown areas, add transit, and sprawl (intelligently) between Lake Huron and the Saugeen River. What you would end up with is a reasonably significant population centre with well-defined urban boundary.

edit: I learned something new today. Apparently Port Elgin and Southampton were other lesser known recipients of the Common Sense revolution. They are actually a single municipality called Saugeen Shores.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

I think that 2 things could happen to make the GTA less grow-y.

1. Ottawa can grow. A GO style train to Buckingham, Carleton Place, Cumberland etc. could work.
2. London needs to be given more attention. Densification, maybe a new city center south of the 401 could help. *Uninformed opinion.*

Realistically though, to make the GTA less "grow-y", I think what would have to happen is that Hamilton needs to become the St. Paul to Toronto's Minneapolis.

 

[44 North]

I saw you guys discussing this in another thread and thought it funny because just last week I had this same thought (and in the process re-reading the Townsed article). Obviously there's huge room for growth in smaller cities. But wouldn't it be neat to re-invent the Townsend concept and try again. All modern apartment towers and townhomes, planned smart, sort of isolated in a rural area. And it could be all owned by the province, so helps address public housing, affordable housing, and can be quite lucrative for them. This would be different in that in its outset a direct rail link to Toronto would be included, with a low fare offered if you live there. No 400-series or major highways needed.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

I saw you guys discussing this in another thread and thought it funny because just last week I had this same thought (and in the process re-reading the Townsed article). Obviously there's huge room for growth in smaller cities. But wouldn't it be neat to re-invent the Townsend concept and try again. All modern apartment towers and townhomes, planned smart, sort of isolated in a rural area. And it could be all owned by the province, so helps address public housing, affordable housing, and can be quite lucrative for them. This would be different in that in its outset a direct rail link to Toronto would be included, with a low fare offered if you live there. No 400-series or major highways needed.

There is also a lot of opportunity to test-run "smart city" technologies in a new settlement. Not unprecedented, as that is more or less what is being done in Songdo, Korea.

Townsend is a little far though for a direct rail link to be useful for regular commuters. Somewhere like Caledonia would be ideal, especially as there is a pre-existing employment centre in Hamilton that it would support. Unfortunately, Caledonia is also embroiled in a large First Nations lands dispute.

 

[lenaitch]

I find the discussion interesting. Folks are using the term 'corridors of commerce' but the corridors of the beginnings of most existing communities were far different than today. US cities on the south shore of Lake Erie grew up around heavy industry, primarily steel, driven by a well-funded and entrepreneurial US economy coupled with a larger and expanding population that didn't exist north of the border (we were small and very agrarian during that period). Raw materials were shipped by water, both the Great Lakes and the Erie Canal feeding the large markets of the US n/e. I'm also not sure the topography of the north shoreline lends itself (or lent - we can engineer just about anything today in comparison) as well to large industrial harbours, but I'm not certain of that. Similarly, Peterborough's growth was driven by nearby available hydroelectric power of the Otonobee River. Northern Ontario communities arose from surrounding resources or, in some cases, as a result of the transportation corridors.

A problem with trying to 'create' an urban or town area is the ability to establish a broad and stable economic base. Centring one around a single large industry is fraught with economic peril, and others, necessary to create a broad-based economic foundation, are often reluctant to be 'first adopters'. A solid economic foundation is necessary to make the community a place people want to move to; things like arts and entertainment as well as retail. Fast food chains don't count.

Posts mention Wasaga Beach, which I think is a mess. There is no historic 'downtown' the community grew out from. It is a long, thin collection of old (cottages) and new housing, strung out along a ~8km road with a few recent retail centres interspersed. It has virtually no non-retail commercial revenue. The only foundation it has is residential wrapped around a very long beach, and it seems the the recent versions of the municipal governments and developers seem hell-bent on wrecking that golden egg.

The concept of a state-created and/or state owned community to act a landlord of a new urban-land is, to me ludicrous. I thought that type of urban planning went out of style with Stalinist Russia and was now confined to China.

 

[Johnny Au]

Ontario could build a resort town by the shores of Lake Erie between Port Dover and Nanticoke and attract a major theme park company to construct a theme park on an artificial sandspit or island. The theme park would obviously compete with Canada's Wonderland (Cedar Fair), Marineland (independent), Fantasy Island (independent), Six Flags Darien Lake (EPR Properties/Six Flags), and Cedar Point (Cedar Fair).

Speaking of Cedar Point, Sandusky, OH is between Toledo and Cleveland and is doing well, despite it being mainly a resort town (it being home to Cedar Point).

 

[44 North]

There is also a lot of opportunity to test-run "smart city" technologies in a new settlement. Not unprecedented, as that is more or less what is being done in Songdo, Korea.

Townsend is a little far though for a direct rail link to be useful for regular commuters. Somewhere like Caledonia would be ideal, especially as there is a pre-existing employment centre in Hamilton that it would support. Unfortunately, Caledonia is also embroiled in a large First Nations lands dispute.

In my mind the direct rail link is more or less an express direct to TO, so it'd be quick and reliable. And the entire city is sort of designed as a Toronto workforce bedroom-city, so not really thinking thinking about creating an economy, or expanding off of an adjacent one. It would also be largely car-restricted, so the rail link is integral. I'm also a bit wedded to the idea of it being on or very close to the water. This is what makes Lake Erie so appealing. Big stretches of very little. Port Maitland, 100 people and the mouth of the Grand River. Put it there.

Ontario could build a resort town by the shores of Lake Erie between Port Dover and Nanticoke and attract a major theme park company to construct a theme park on an artificial sandspit or island. The theme park would obviously compete with Canada's Wonderland (Cedar Fair), Marineland (independent), Fantasy Island (independent), Six Flags Darien Lake (EPR Properties/Six Flags), and Cedar Point (Cedar Fair).

Speaking of Cedar Point, Sandusky, OH is between Toledo and Cleveland and is doing well, despite it being mainly a resort town (it being home to Cedar Point).

Crystal Beach is a fine looking town (from what I can tell by aerial Google...I've never been). It had an amusement park right on the shore operating for 100yrs. Now it's been converted to a gated community. Literally it has fences and gates, right in the core of the town. Otherwise it looks very nice. Tight grid of streets more urban than much of our suburbs, lush canopy. Surprised I haven't heard about it.

 

[Johnny Au]

In my mind the direct rail link is more or less an express direct to TO, so it'd be quick and reliable. And the entire city is sort of designed as a Toronto workforce bedroom-city, so not really thinking thinking about creating an economy, or expanding off of an adjacent one. It would also be largely car-restricted, so the rail link is integral. I'm also a bit wedded to the idea of it being on or very close to the water. This is what makes Lake Erie so appealing. Big stretches of very little. Port Maitland, 100 people and the mouth of the Grand River. Put it there.

Crystal Beach is a fine looking town (from what I can tell by aerial Google...I've never been). It had an amusement park right on the shore operating for 100yrs. Now it's been converted to a gated community. Literally it has fences and gates, right in the core of the town. Otherwise it looks very nice. Tight grid of streets more urban than much of our suburbs, lush canopy. Surprised I haven't heard about it.

Port Maitland would be an excellent place to be the successor of Crystal Beach when it comes to lakeside theme parks on the Ontario side of Lake Erie. However, the theme park should not be too close to the mouth of the Grand River for environmental reasons.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

In my mind the direct rail link is more or less an express direct to TO, so it'd be quick and reliable. And the entire city is sort of designed as a Toronto workforce bedroom-city, so not really thinking thinking about creating an economy, or expanding off of an adjacent one. It would also be largely car-restricted, so the rail link is integral. I'm also a bit wedded to the idea of it being on or very close to the water. This is what makes Lake Erie so appealing. Big stretches of very little. Port Maitland, 100 people and the mouth of the Grand River. Put it there.

Ah well Port Maitland is a different location (and with a pre-existing rail corridor, though I don't really know where it goes past Dunnville) than where Townsend was. Townsend is substantially further away.

I think it is slightly wasted to build a direct rail link for serving just one "workforce bedroom-city". There should be multiple bedroom-city nodes surrounding stations on this rail link, and those stations should be planned and spaced out in order to maximize train speeds.

If Port Maitland was selected as the terminus, it perhaps could go: Port Maitland --> Dunnville --> Canfield --> Caledonia --> Mt Hope (Hamilton Intl Airport)--> Hamilton GO

That would be ~65km from Port Maitland to Hamilton, and ~130km to Union Station in Toronto.

Actually not too crazy. Barrie GO is ~85km away from Union, and Niagara Falls is something approaching ~130km too.

 

[Divas S.]

We can take some inspiration from New Towns of the UK see here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_towns_in_the_United_Kingdom

Many towns were built throughout the country and especially around London, most of the developments were very auto centric and built by the state, the housing built was public housing but was made to include people of all classes to live in them. You can thank ms thatcher for completely overthrowing a system that housed most people in the country. The Council Housing system came after the end of WW2 and came in to clear the slums and bombed cities that were everywhere at the time and were a big part in rebuilding the country.

 

[lenaitch]

In my mind the direct rail link is more or less an express direct to TO, so it'd be quick and reliable. And the entire city is sort of designed as a Toronto workforce bedroom-city, so not really thinking thinking about creating an economy, or expanding off of an adjacent one. It would also be largely car-restricted, so the rail link is integral. I'm also a bit wedded to the idea of it being on or very close to the water. This is what makes Lake Erie so appealing. Big stretches of very little. Port Maitland, 100 people and the mouth of the Grand River. Put it there.



Crystal Beach is a fine looking town (from what I can tell by aerial Google...I've never been). It had an amusement park right on the shore operating for 100yrs. Now it's been converted to a gated community. Literally it has fences and gates, right in the core of the town. Otherwise it looks very nice. Tight grid of streets more urban than much of our suburbs, lush canopy. Surprised I haven't heard about it.

So . . . a dormitory. Would the people who would be required to work there to maintain the infrastructure, retail, community services, etc. be like servants, since there would be apparently be local economy? Taxes would have to be quite high because it would seem to be only residentially-based.

 

[44 North]

So . . . a dormitory. Would the people who would be required to work there to maintain the infrastructure, retail, community services, etc. be like servants, since there would be apparently be local economy? Taxes would have to be quite high because it would seem to be only residentially-based.

Well there will be schools, retail, and services. With much of the housing likely acting as a co-op. It's just that the main economy wouldn't be tied to a single large employer/sector (e.g Townsend-Nanticoke). Rather it wold be tied to a single area with many employers (Toronto's core).

So a bedroom community? Yes and no. It would be planned around being mostly car-free, fairly high-density, and uniquely surrounded by rural. Compare that with the usual winding sprawling subdivisions, with highway access, big box land, where non-auto is a virtual afterthought, and obviously this isn't the conventional bedroom community. Also the direct rail link is sort of subsidized by those who live there and is a service tailored and conceived as part of the viability of the concept.

Might sound a bit prison-esque. In that you can't own the property, can't have a car on hand nearby, a large number of households require someone to work in a specific area, and a significant amount of income goes to the proverbial company store (the gov't via high taxes). But that's sort of the point and how it differs. And I'm sure there would be many that go for it. Right on the water, country nearby, 1hr commute that's effectively free, don't have to own a car.

 

[A Torontonian Now]

While I'm not so keen on this idea of planning new cities, if we were to expand an existing centre, I think Kingston has a lot going for it and should be in the running. On the lake, with a diverse economy already. On 401 and rail lines, possible future HSR stop on a Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal line. Historic downtown.

 

[lenaitch]

Some of the posts strike me as a form of urban colonialism. Regardless, interesting concepts. Moving on.

 

[Scotian]

There is plenty of land in places where civilization already exists or exists nearby before any barren outpost will start to see any sort of modern colonization - St. Catharines & Niagara for one, the region of Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge/Guelph for another, and eventually I think the holiday nation that's been created in PEC over the last ten years is going to spill up to Trenton and Belleville. Barrie and basically everything between the 400 and Georgian Bay are already being filled up, as has been mentioned here the 7 corridor west of Brampton has intensification written all over it, Oshawa is going to eventually have a massive plot of land where GM is right now to develop and places in SW Ontario like London and Windsor have post secondary institutions that can start leading to more permanent residents instead of people taking their law degrees etc. back to the GTA.

We'll all be long gone by the time any new major development or city begins construction on currently unoccupied land unless something very unexpected forces it.