Pickering Airport (Transport Canada/GTAA, Proposed)

[nfitz]

I'd assume that with the expected drop in air demand for the next decade or so, any need for yet another GTA airport is going to be pushed a lot further down the road. I doubt we'll see much expansion at London , Hamilton, or Kitchener in the 2020s. They might as well just sell Pickering for redevelopment at this point.

Even the GTAA is talking about not returning to previous levels for five years - and surely they are more likely to be optimistic than anything.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/toronto-pearson-layoffs-1.5648723

 

[JasonParis]

The three levels of government need to step up and invest in Hamilton period, for the sake of the Canadian economy.
In addition to the downtown LRT, there also needs to be an LRT running from West Harbour GO, up the mountain, and all the way to the airport.

Honest question, but could an LRT actually get up the mountain?

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

Honest question, but could an LRT actually get up the mountain?

I'm no engineer so I do my best to leave the calculations to others, but it was depicted in the various transit network maps provided for Hamilton in the past.

I imagine if it was on James Street, it would require elevated guideway and after exiting the mountain it would have to slowly slope downwards to perhaps somewhere as far as Charlton Avenue, which would probably make for a fine location to put a station before Hamilton Centre anyway.

Another consideration is where does the decline from the mountain start. I was picturing somewhere around Inverness Ave, but in theory if you don't plan on any stations after Fennel Avenue, it could begin its decline through a tunnel after there.

 

[MarkBrooks]

This really means a shovel ready airport is needed. Not a greenfield project. I'll bet to bring Hamilton up to the level that Pickering would be expected to be built by the little plane advocates, it would be faster than building a new airport in a greenfield, including all the transportation and utility services. Yes, more space may be needed due to covid challenges, but it does not warrant a new, greenfield project. A new terminal at Hamilton, and possibly one at London and Waterloo might make sense.

I look forward to the net argument you post.

The key question is whose money is investing in the new infrastructure?



For Hamilton and Waterloo It can only be government money. No private investors will want to invest in overbuilding an airport on the assumption that passenger traffic from two hours away will have no choice but to use it.

This is a setup for a Maribel style failure.

Pickering on the other hand, due to its close proximity to the customers it will serve, can be funded with private investors. This funding model is in line with the nature of Canada’s capitalism driven economy.

So if it comes down to a choice between a command control government funded buildout or a privately funded free enterprise driven buildout, Pickering is a clear winner.


Hamilton and Waterloo should also buildout as much as able, but with local funding, supporting its local passenger catchment area.

 

[micheal_can]

Honest question, but could an LRT actually get up the mountain?

Look up Cog trains. They have a gear under them with teeth embedded into the ground. They are one of many options.

 

[micheal_can]

The key question is whose money is investing in the new infrastructure?



For Hamilton and Waterloo It can only be government money. No private investors will want to invest in overbuilding an airport on the assumption that passenger traffic from two hours away will have no choice but to use it.

This is a setup for a Maribel style failure.

Pickering on the other hand, due to its close proximity to the customers it will serve, can be funded with private investors. This funding model is in line with the nature of Canada’s capitalism driven economy.

So if it comes down to a choice between a command control government funded buildout or a privately funded free enterprise driven buildout, Pickering is a clear winner.


Hamilton and Waterloo should also buildout as much as able, but with local funding, supporting its local passenger catchment area.

Well, then build it and be done with it. Do not take a dime of taxpayer money. Have all private money pay for it.

However, the fact that it won't be all private money speaks louder than your posts here.

 

[micheal_can]

I'd assume that with the expected drop in air demand for the next decade or so, any need for yet another GTA airport is going to be pushed a lot further down the road. I doubt we'll see much expansion at London , Hamilton, or Kitchener in the 2020s. They might as well just sell Pickering for redevelopment at this point.

Even the GTAA is talking about not returning to previous levels for five years - and surely they are more likely to be optimistic than anything.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/toronto-pearson-layoffs-1.5648723

I say leave it as farmland/green space. This will protect the area for one day that it might be needed. We do not need acres upon acres of suburbia.

 

[gweed123]

Honest question, but could an LRT actually get up the mountain?

Assuming James St is the lower city street chosen, the portal would be somewhere around here. If you went on a diagonal, you may be able to get back up to grade by the time you hit Mohawk College. It's feasible, but it would be a pretty significant tunnel.

I say leave it as farmland/green space. This will protect the area for one day that it might be needed. We do not need acres upon acres of suburbia.

Agreed. Make the lands part of the Greenbelt. It's already leased lands anyway, so it's not like the farmers are losing out on their nest-egg by the lands being re-designated.

 

[JasonParis]

Assuming James St is the lower city street chosen, the portal would be somewhere around here. If you went on a diagonal, you may be able to get back up to grade by the time you hit Mohawk College. It's feasible, but it would be a pretty significant tunnel.

With a stop named "Waterford's Home."

 

[MarkBrooks]

Always amazed at the technology advances in aviation.

So What will be flying out of the new Pickering Airport when it opens in 2029?

Gaze into the future in the latest post from the Friends of Pickering Airport. We discuss industry trends, what will be flying and why.

Or you can stick you head in the sand and hope the GTAs stunning growth Somehow is squashed and diverted elsewhere.

my bet is on Toronto.

The New Aircraft of Pickering Airport: A Quest for Efficiency

Mark Brooks, Sept 17, 2020 In 2029, Pickering Airport will be open. What type of aircraft will call it home? To answer that question, we need to understand two of the forces driving&…

pickeringairport.org

 

[Coolstar]

Always amazed at the technology advances in aviation.

So What will be flying out of the new Pickering Airport when it opens in 2029?

Gaze into the future in the latest post from the Friends of Pickering Airport. We discuss industry trends, what will be flying and why.

Or you can stick you head in the sand and hope the GTAs stunning growth Somehow is squashed and diverted elsewhere.

my bet is on Toronto.

The New Aircraft of Pickering Airport: A Quest for Efficiency

Mark Brooks, Sept 17, 2020 In 2029, Pickering Airport will be open. What type of aircraft will call it home? To answer that question, we need to understand two of the forces driving&…

pickeringairport.org

I don't know much about this project but that's an optimistic opening date.

 

[Northern Light]

Always amazed at the technology advances in aviation.

So What will be flying out of the new Pickering Airport when it opens in 2029?

Gaze into the future in the latest post from the Friends of Pickering Airport. We discuss industry trends, what will be flying and why.

Or you can stick you head in the sand and hope the GTAs stunning growth Somehow is squashed and diverted elsewhere.

my bet is on Toronto.

The New Aircraft of Pickering Airport: A Quest for Efficiency

Mark Brooks, Sept 17, 2020 In 2029, Pickering Airport will be open. What type of aircraft will call it home? To answer that question, we need to understand two of the forces driving&…

pickeringairport.org

Mark.....you revived a thread about this airport, that had been dormant a month..........to publish something written by you, that is not about the airport, but about aircraft.

This is not an aviation forum.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

I'll play along, for a bit at least. While Mark (Or should I say friends of Pickering airport) would like you to believe that the grounding of a380 and b747 aircraft signals the end of large wide body airlines. This couldn't be further from the truth. There are aircraft today and coming up that are nearly matching the capacities of these 4 engine behemoths. Boeing's 777 already matches it's larger sisters capacity with up to 450 passengers on the 777-300, compared to approximately 416 for the 747-400 Or 467 for the 747-8. And the 777-9x program will bring the max seating to 426 passengers.

On the Airbus front the a350-1000 seats approx 369 passengers compared to the a380 approx 575 passengers. Sure that comparison is not that great but Airbus has learned that there is a very small market for an aircraft the size of the a380 and have redirected their attention to the a350.

The point is this. The future of aviation will not be solely small capacity airliners. There will continue to be a place for large capacity wide body aircraft. It's just that technology has advanced so far that we can now flu with 2 engines where we once required 4 engines.

What this has to do with picker though I have no idea since it likely will never become a major international hub that attracts large capacity aircraft such as the 747, 777, 330, 380, 350.

 

[slapped_chicken]

Yep. Large widebody aircraft aren't at risk; in fact, in the post-pandemic world, having large aircraft with spacious cabins for long-haul flights may be favourable (albeit at a higher cost per passenger). It is only the really large aircraft such as the A380 that have fallen out of popularity; they aren't flexible to operate outside of a few extremely high demand flagship routes and thus not an ideal long haul fleet option for nearly all airlines (*cough* well except for Emirates) and cannot compete cost-wise with twinjets.

This Pickering airport, whenever it comes to fruition, would likely serve a lot of budget airlines and domestic flights. YYZ and YTZ's superior location (relative to population distribution in the GTA) and transportation connections will, for the most part, serve most international flights and more premium domestic routes. But with the current situation and with YYZ apparently having up to 80-90 million pax/year capacity after it's expansions + 4th parallel E-W runway, I don't see a Pickering Airport being feasible soon. As much as employment-starved Durham would need it. As someone else said, it's probably best to leave it as greenbelt until Pearson hits 70m pax/year, and then we can bring Pickering back on the table.

 

[MarkBrooks]

Mark.....you revived a thread about this airport, that had been dormant a month..........to publish something written by you, that is not about the airport, but about aircraft.

This is not an aviation forum.

I Understand that you are uncomfortable about this topic. A number of people seem to be, thus the acts of censorship.

However it is one of the most important projects now on offer for the Easter GTA. Airport and Aircraft go hand in hand. One drives the Need for the other, read the link and you will understand that. Understanding what is driving the growth of aviation services defines the requirements of the project.

My post is related To the airport, which is the topic of this forum. The Airport that the latest government report ( KPMG ASA report ) suggest breaking ground on in 2026, first phase opening in 2029. An airport that is now about to become an election topic.

what is inappropriate is the number of posts on this forum on non airport topics that seem to do no more than obscure the debate on timing, size and role of the airport that should be taking place.

I post here because I believe in breaking the political and social bubbles people seem to group themselves into in online media like this forum. In so doing I learn, and hopefully you do too.
The reaction to my attempts in the past has been a mix of Wishful thinking and censorship.
Neither will make the need or the topic disappear.