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Peterborough Commuter Rail

I'd be curious to see if you guys support cutting rail service to Sarnia. It's smaller and more isolated than Peterborough, with fewer residents working in the nearest city. How about North Bay or Vancouver Island?

People go to the city for reasons other than work, enough to fill 10-12 daily Greyhounds. And with any intercity transit service the catchment area is larger than the end city. Cities the size of Peterborough support rail service all over the world. We should be expanding rail service not only there, but to places like Collingwood, Orillia, and Sherbrooke to name a few.
 
That's true. I'd like the Peterborough service to be geared not only to a commuter-friendly schedule (which also serves students, those needing to go to Toronto appointments, business meetings, etc), but also trains going the other way to serve Trent and Fleming students, visitors, business meetings (ie the MNR, whose offices are a stone's throw from the CP Station downtown), etc.

I'm very curious how the Oshawa-Peterborough (too bad it completely misses downtown Oshawa or anywhere convenient to local transit) and Burlington-Stoney Creek-Niagara Falls bus services do.

Unfortunately Sarnia (like the entire North Main Line including Kitchener and Guelph) has no morning westbound service.

With existing rail in place and student and commuter passenger potential, Sherbrooke is a certain no-brainer as well.
 
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Toronto (C) / Toronto (C) ...................819,940
Mississauga (CY) / Toronto (C) ...............85,010
Markham (T) / Toronto (C) ....................55,765
Vaughan (CY) / Toronto (C) ...................45,330
Brampton (CY) / Toronto (C) ..................39,785
Richmond Hill (T) / Toronto (C) ..............28,695
Pickering (CY) / Toronto (C) .................21,420
Ajax (T) / Toronto (C) .......................19,460
Oakville (T) / Toronto (C) ...................17,525
Whitby (T) / Toronto (C) .....................16,225
Oshawa (CY) / Toronto (C) .....................9,540
Burlington (CY) / Toronto (C) .................8,475
Newmarket (T) / Toronto (C) ...................7,195
Hamilton (C) / Toronto (C) ....................6,925
Aurora (T) / Toronto (C) ......................6,240
Caledon (T) / Toronto (C) .....................5,180 New Bolton Line, maybe New Orangeville Line
Barrie (CY) / Toronto (C) .....................4,425
Clarington (MU) / Toronto (C) .................4,365 Lakeshore East Line Extension
Milton (T) / Toronto (C) ......................3,805
Halton Hills (T) / Toronto (C) ................2,750
Whitchurch-Stouffville (T) / Toronto (C).......2,690
Georgina (T) / Toronto (C) ....................2,515 Richmond Hill Line Extension
King (TP) / Toronto (C) .......................2,290
Innisfil (T) / Toronto (C) ....................1,970 New stop on Barrie Line
Bradford West Gwillimbury (T) / Toronto (C) ...1,665
East Gwillimbury (T) / Toronto (C) ............1,585
New Tecumseth (T) / Toronto (C) ...............1,565 Bolton Line
Uxbridge (TP) / Toronto (C) ...................1,310 Stouffville Line Extension
Guelph (CY) / Toronto (C) .....................1,305 Georgetown Line Extension
Kawartha Lakes (CY) / Toronto (C) .............1,280 Stouffville Line Extension requiring retracking to Lindsay
Cambridge (CY) / Toronto (C) ..................1,230 Milton Line Extension
Kitchener (CY) / Toronto (C) ....................960 Georgetown Line Extension
Scugog (TP) / Toronto (C) .......................915 New Peterborough Line
Ottawa (C) / Toronto (C) ........................785 VIA HSR
London (CY) / Toronto (C) .......................700 VIA HSR
Orangeville (T) / Toronto (C) ...................700 New Orangeville Line
St. Catharines (CY) / Toronto (C) ...............650 Lakeshore West Extension
Peterborough (CY) / Toronto (C) .................545
Brantford (CY) / Toronto (C) ....................540
Waterloo (CY) / Toronto (C) .....................520
Montréal (V) / Toronto (C) ......................480

So in summary the following have more use than the Peterborough Line:
- New Bolton Line (maybe to Alliston)
- Lakeshore East Line Extension to Bowmanville (under EA)
- Richmond Hill Line Extension to Mount Albert
- New station on Barrie Line at Innisfil
- Stouffville Line Extension (maybe with retracking to Lindsay)
- Georgetown Line Extension to Kitchener (under EA)
- Milton Line Extension to Cambridge
- New Orangeville Line
- Lakeshore West Line Extension to St.Catharines

Obviously GO Trains to Peterborough are only being looked at for political reasons. The Bolton Line is a far higher priority and how hard would it be to put a GO station in Innisfil? The only way rail could make sense to Peterborough is a one train per day RDC type service. I guess the good news is they are starting with GO bus service so any lack of demand will quickly be seen before wasting money on the rail corridor.
 
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MisterF said:
I'd be curious to see if you guys support cutting rail service to Sarnia. It's smaller and more isolated than Peterborough, with fewer residents working in the nearest city. How about North Bay or Vancouver Island?
Click to expand...

But those rail links aren't being run as a commuter service. If it is a VIA run service running once or twice a day then it makes sense. As a GO Train during rush hour it doesn't make sense.
 
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EnviroTO said:
Toronto (C) / Toronto (C) ...................819,940
Mississauga (CY) / Toronto (C) ...............85,010
Markham (T) / Toronto (C) ....................55,765
Vaughan (CY) / Toronto (C) ...................45,330
Brampton (CY) / Toronto (C) ..................39,785
Richmond Hill (T) / Toronto (C) ..............28,695
Pickering (CY) / Toronto (C) .................21,420
Ajax (T) / Toronto (C) .......................19,460
Oakville (T) / Toronto (C) ...................17,525
Click to expand...


Interesting numbers. I think they show that Mississauga needs a subway pronto!
 
EnviroTO said:
But those rail links aren't being run as a commuter service. If it is a VIA run service running once or twice a day then it makes sense. As a GO Train during rush hour it doesn't make sense.
Click to expand...
Everyone, including the media, is assuming it'll be a GO train. No announcement has been made about who's going to run the service. It could end up being a VIA service running once or twice a day.

Interesting numbers. I think they show that Mississauga needs a subway pronto!
Click to expand...
Frequent, electrified regional rail would make more sense, IMO.
 
EnviroTO said:
Obviously GO Trains to Peterborough are only being looked at for political reasons. The Bolton Line is a far higher priority and how hard would it be to put a GO station in Innisfil? The only way rail could make sense to Peterborough is a one train per day RDC type service. I guess the good news is they are starting with GO bus service so any lack of demand will quickly be seen before wasting money on the rail corridor.
Click to expand...

Yes, the rail connection to Peterborough is very politically motivated. I wonder though if the amount of people commuting to the GTA from Peterborough has been on the increase. The population of the Peterborough area is growing and I would imagine that many of those new arrivals are coming from the GTA and continuing to work there. I get the feeling that the puch for GO service from the city has been all about attracting exurban commuters, not servicing existing demand. Not that that justifies fudning this line before other more deserving ones.
 
So Barrie had about 4400 people coming to Toronto as of 2006 - and according to this post http://www.urbantoronto.ca/showpost.php?p=258056&postcount=64 daily ridership was up to 660 on GO as of last November. This was way above projections - so 15% is great. So after a year of operation Peterborough could have about 75 people. Clearly this calls for at least 5 or 6 peak hour trains and all-day half hour service.
 
The Bolton Line is a far higher priority and how hard would it be to put a GO station in Innisfil?
Click to expand...

Is there any projected timeline on the Bolton line? I read before that the CP tracks would have to be twinned, seeing as though there is so much freight traffic passing through there currently.
 
Recent article about the upgrades to the line:

Good news on local rail front: H-B-M reeve
By Bill Freeman
Havelock-Belmont-Methuen - A federal government plan to bring high speed rail to Peterborough would also include a complete upgrade of the rail line and bed between the city and Havelock with increased speed capabilities, says Havelock-Belmont-Methuen reeve Ron Gerow.
Gerow was enthusiastic after attending a meeting in Peterborough with MP Dean Del Mastro and federal transportation officials to get an update on the railway issue Del Mastro has been championing.
"It's all good news. It's all very positive," Gerow said during Tuesday night's council meeting. "It was a good meeting. We had the people who are making the decisions and in the know at the table.
"I'm happy to see the project for the upgrade of the line fro Peterborough to Toronto moving forward. They are at the stage now of putting the finishing touches on a number of the pieces revolving around where the CP and CN yards meet in Toronto and how this will work."
The "final touches in the planning and engineering part of it" are also being completed, Gerow said.
Gerow says there will be additional announcements about the project in the near future along with more information about the environmental assessment that must be undertaken.
The "good news for Havelock-Belmont-Methuen," he added, is the fact that the line between Peterborough and Havelock will be included in the environmental assessment process.
"The way it was put to me at the meeting is that we'd be looking at a total new line between Peterborough and Havelock with new welded rail, new road bed, the whole nine yards."
He also said it would "likely be recommended" that the line meet a "60 mph standard at the minimum end" with "100 mph capabilities for the rest of the line.
"What that means is that freight rail out of this area can bring the speed up from 10 mph to at least 60 mph in the future and very likely it can be justified (that) passenger rail service could be brought back to Havelock."
The estimated cost of the Toronto to Havelock project is between $190 and $200 million, he said.
"And that does not include the interchange at the staging area in Toronto."
Gerow said that what he heard in Peterborough "puts an end to the speculation and supposition out there (about the project)."
"As we move forward I'm quite sure this information will make it's way out to the public and there will be an opportunity for their input in this community and across the county."
Click to expand...
 
Rebuilding the line to Havelock seems unnecessary. It certainly adds to the rumours that CP wants to rebuild the line to Montreal.
 
High-speed rail? I know journalists can be lazy with the facts, but could they at least use their common sense a little?
 
MisterF said:
Rebuilding the line to Havelock seems unnecessary. It certainly adds to the rumours that CP wants to rebuild the line to Montreal.
Click to expand...

The only other reason I can see Havelock being the terminus of the construction is that it was the terminus of the RDC service at the time of the Mulroney cuts of 1990. Perhaps there's some sort of push to get the whole service restored, not just to Peterborough. This would mean stops in Norwood and possibly the sign post stop at Indian River.

Though I really don't hate the idea of government giving some money to this project even if it is about CP reviving the Havelock-Glen Tay line abandoned in the 1970s and 1980s, especially if it does take some trucks off the 401. I'd even dream of a few local VIA trains to Ottawa via the back way.

Really, I think the only stops worthwhile on this run are Union (maybe Leaside) Agincourt, Locust Hill, Claremont, Myrtle and/or Raglan (bus to Port Perry, Oshawa/UOIT), Pontypool (with bus to Lindsay), South Peterborough (the parking stop) and DT Peterborough (the urban/terminal stop).

Alliston is not a bad choice for a long-term GO stop. I'm half surprised they haven't taken that one over already, even with a few buses to Yorkdale/York U on weekdays.
 
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