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Peterborough Commuter Rail

wopchop said:
I don't see the problem. If they can present a good business case, then I think that we should fully support it.

For reference, it is ~135km along the rails to Niagara Falls and ~160km along the rails to Havelock (even less to Peterborough).
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Sure, if they can present a good business case.

But it's unlikely they will. The Peterborough CMA has population of only 119K in the last census compared to 392K for St. Catharines—Niagara Falls.

The Niagara Falls run after it leaves Toronto goes through the densely populated Mississauga, Oakville, Burlington, Hamlton, and Grimsby providing with millions of people. Once the Peterborough line leaves Toronto in the NE corner of Scarborough, it skirts the edge of Markham and is quickly quite far north of the 407, missing even Pickering, with the biggest town between there and Peterborough being the village of Pontypool, population about 2,000.

If the Peterborough line ran through other places east of Toronto, there might be a case. With the construction of 407 now extending east to the 115, car and bus travel to Toronto will be even more competitive in the future. Peterborough would be best served by connecting a GO bus to the proposed Courtice Road GO station.
 
The line not only misses significant population areas, it runs through areas that need to be maintained as greenbelt. Putting a passenger line there would signal a willingness to develop along the line, and given Ontario's pretty weak planning regime, I'm sure the developers would prevail.

It's also an extremely old rail corridor - the first through route from Toronto to Montreal, in fact. It was built to a pretty primitive engineering standard and was treated as a secondary branch line since the 1920's. CP built its current Toronto-Smiths Falls mainline in the 1920's because the Havelock line would have been too expensive to bring up to the main-line standards of that era. Bringing it up to current standards would be that much more expensive.

As noted, it's just plain more cost effective to link Peterboro to the Lakeshore GO line by bus. If GO implements more express services on that line, the trip will be auto-competitive to downtown.

- Paul
 
crs1026 said:
The line not only misses significant population areas, it runs through areas that need to be maintained as greenbelt. Putting a passenger line there would signal a willingness to develop along the line, and given Ontario's pretty weak planning regime, I'm sure the developers would prevail.

It's also an extremely old rail corridor - the first through route from Toronto to Montreal, in fact. It was built to a pretty primitive engineering standard and was treated as a secondary branch line since the 1920's. CP built its current Toronto-Smiths Falls mainline in the 1920's because the Havelock line would have been too expensive to bring up to the main-line standards of that era. Bringing it up to current standards would be that much more expensive.

As noted, it's just plain more cost effective to link Peterboro to the Lakeshore GO line by bus. If GO implements more express services on that line, the trip will be auto-competitive to downtown.

- Paul
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The Grand Trunk's Toronto-Montreal mainline was built even earlier, in the 1850s, but it was built to a very high standard, similar to those in England at the time (but without the grade separations so much more common there). There were a few minor re-routings (the track was re-aligned in the 1890s, I believe, between Oshawa and Port Hope, as well in Kingston, and between Johnstown and Cornwall in the 1950s) but it's mostly the same.

But you're right. The Ontario and Quebec was a lousy alignment, which is why CP built the Belleville Sub to replace it.
 
wopchop said:
I don't see the problem. If they can present a good business case, then I think that we should fully support it.

For reference, it is ~135km along the rails to Niagara Falls and ~160km along the rails to Havelock (even less to Peterborough).
Click to expand...

The problem is the hundreds of millions of dollars involved in restoring rail service to a small city. People still thinking this plan has any kind of chance are a special kind of gullible. This opinion piece in the star sums it up nicely, and correctly identifies the danger of announcing "funding" without solid plans to support them: http://www.thestar.com/opinion/comm...s-transit-promises-a-sop-to-the-gullible.html

Myopic cynics will remember the last time the Harper government announced an exciting transit initiative in a budget speech. The finance minister was Jim Flaherty, the year 2008, and the promise was a high-speed rail link between Toronto and Peterborough.
The plan was a bolt from the blue that short-circuited many more pressing transit priorities but did land squarely in the popular finance minister’s political backyard. “At least 900 Durham and Peterborough-area commuters are about to get the kind of rail service to Union Station that would make thousands of transit-hungry GTA commuters cry with envy,” this newspaper commented.

But it was a promise, announced in the budget to boot, and everybody likes “high-speed rail.” Flaherty had planted his pot o’ gold way over the rainbow in Peterborough, and it was good.
It was good enough, at least, to get local MP Dean Del Mastro re-elected — but least is where it stayed. The rest of the tale is farce.

Today the so-called Shining Waters Railway is the forgotten shell of an inert enterprise that last appeared in public to beg a reluctant Peterborough council for $2,500 to maintain the insurance on its non-operations. It has no trains, no track, no money and no future. The most recent “update” on its website is a four-year-old story from the Peterborough Examiner with the headline, “Del Mastro says trains will run by 2014 — THE LATEST.”
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44 North said:
I’m glad this issue still has some life in it. I know the area NE of Peterborough quite well. Somewhat related, but awhile back I stumbled on the photo below which I found quite interesting and thought I’d share. There’s an old (and still very much active) nepheline syenite mine north of Havelock, with trains running back and forth to the mine along the Nephton Sub. I wasn’t aware of it until I saw this photo a few months ago, but back in the 2000s GO apparently ran excursions all the way up to Havelock and along the old spur. Perhaps it will again someday?

View attachment 45495
from here: http://www.railpictures.net/photo/135302/
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As far as I know go never ran passenger service along this spur. At that time GE ran a rail repair yard in Havelock that repaired trains from Toronto. Most likely this is a train going there for service.
 
nrb said:
The problem is the hundreds of millions of dollars involved in restoring rail service to a small city. People still thinking this plan has any kind of chance are a special kind of gullible. This opinion piece in the star sums it up nicely, and correctly identifies the danger of announcing "funding" without solid plans to support them: http://www.thestar.com/opinion/comm...s-transit-promises-a-sop-to-the-gullible.html
Click to expand...

I feel like there are some parallels with this: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kitch...-study-was-rushed-ahead-of-election-1.2866591

Exclusive Ontario high-speed rail study was rushed ahead of election
Consultants calls Toronto-Kitchener-London line 'unusually easy'

Apparently Michael Schabas relied on dated Google Earth images, and 'We did in 2 weeks what normally take 3-4 months, at a considerably higher [cost].'

On the whole, I don't think rail to Peterborough or beyond is really viable. But it's an interesting discussion, and I believe the Don Branch through the valley would be fixed up for this. And it also keeps hope alive for people in that part of the province. Similarly in SW ON, I know some in London who seem to think HSR is coming any day now.

nrb said:
As far as I know go never ran passenger service along this spur. At that time GE ran a rail repair yard in Havelock that repaired trains from Toronto. Most likely this is a train going there for service.
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Hm. I may’ve been wrong about saying this "excursion" train was in the 2000s. That’s when the photo was added, but apparently it was taken in '97. And if I’m reading the post correctly, and getting my bearings from that photo, I believe the train is in fact on the Nephton Sub somewhere northwest of Havelock. Also, the remarks in the post say: "GO 531 leads a special Havelock-Blue Mountain excursion train on the freight-only CPR Nephton Sub."

Looks to be taken from here:

https://www.google.ca/maps/@44.4391...m4!1e1!3m2!1s4y5rV7rJ3GFEQuz3h1diNA!2e0?hl=en
edit: maybe that's not where the photo was taken. This seems more like it:

https://www.google.ca/maps/@44.4591...m4!1e1!3m2!1srDvExjo98k8tUp1Vr2XIRA!2e0?hl=en
 
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FYI, here is one a 1988 schedule. One of the last ones before the Conservatives cancelled it:

Peterborough.png

From: http://www.scribd.com/doc/53636750/VIA-Rail-National-Timetable-Indicateur-National-Oct-30-1988
 

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Are you saying the we had GO service to Peterborough?

I guess most of the PC cuts happened under Harris, so this was cancelled in 1996-ish. So with 19 years of ridership growth potential and 12+ years of Liberal government, the conclusion of this government is that Peterborough train service is not yet needed. If train service is not needed now then it obviously was not needed 19 years ago when demand was lower. That sounds like a wise cut.
 
^ I wasn't saying there was GO service to Peterborough. Merely that a special occasion GO train went well beyond Peterborough and into the hinterland. This train excursion may have been a one time thing. I only added it to the discussion because it was somewhat relevant (and perhaps interesting)
 
BurlOak said:
I guess most of the PC cuts happened under Harris, so this was cancelled in 1996-ish.
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???

It's the VIA Rail schedule, as you can see from the link (not to mention the colour scheme!). The huge cuts to VIA Rail and in particular the Peterborough line were done by the Conservatives under Mulroney.
 
JasonParis said:
Forgive my lack of knowledge of Pickering geography, but I'm curious if this line would abut the Pickering airport lands? If so, that could perhaps increase its viability one day?
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It does, but that's only just past where it's already viable (Locust Hill), which where the tracks cross Hihgway 7 in Markham, just east of Reesor Roard, just north of the northeast corner of Scarborough.

If you look at the proposed runways and new track for Pickering Airport, the new track leaves the Peterborough line about 4 km east of Locust Hill.

So perhaps helps the case for running a commuter service to Scarborough and Markham. Doesn't do much to help the case of serving past their towards Peterborough.

pickering.jpg
 

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nfitz said:
Sure, if they can present a good business case.

But it's unlikely they will. The Peterborough CMA has population of only 119K in the last census compared to 392K for St. Catharines—Niagara Falls.

The Niagara Falls run after it leaves Toronto goes through the densely populated Mississauga, Oakville, Burlington, Hamlton, and Grimsby providing with millions of people. Once the Peterborough line leaves Toronto in the NE corner of Scarborough, it skirts the edge of Markham and is quickly quite far north of the 407, missing even Pickering, with the biggest town between there and Peterborough being the village of Pontypool, population about 2,000.

If the Peterborough line ran through other places east of Toronto, there might be a case. With the construction of 407 now extending east to the 115, car and bus travel to Toronto will be even more competitive in the future. Peterborough would be best served by connecting a GO bus to the proposed Courtice Road GO station.
Click to expand...

Everything you are saying makes sense.

I still hope that they succeed.
 
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