Perceptions of Accesible Retail Downtown

[C-mac]

You seem to think it's not unreasonable to take a cab to get groceries if you live downtown, so why not ditch your car and use an auto share when you want to golf? Couldn't be all that much if it's only once in a while.

I have thought about it, and if one of my two jobs wasn't in Markham I would probably think about it quite a bit more. Second, because I choose not to live downtown in order save some money to put towards car which is more important to me then living downtown at this time in my life. It might change at some point, but right now that's my choice.

I dont "seem" to think it's not unreasonable to take a cab to get groceries. People both in DT Toronto and the Suburbs have been doing it for decades. My mother had to it. It's simply not unreasonable. If you don't like living more then 3k away from a grocery store, then you have to try and make sacrifices to move closer to place where there's one within walking distance. Just like any living situation, there's pros and cons, and you have to weigh them out and figure out what's important to you and make the choice within your budget. The argument because you chose to live downtown there should be grocery store "walking distance" doesn't fly with me. I have a little sympathy for people who chose a specific building near a supermarket if it closed on them after moving in, but once again that can happen in the suburbs. Having a grocery store within walking distance just because you live DT isn't some right of passage. It's a perk and a benefit. If the for profit supermarkets companies don't put one your area cause it doesn't make business sense, then like everyone else in the city you have to figure it out.

 

[Northern Light]

The fact of the matter is, it's not realistic. Not every home in DT Toronto can be within walking distance from a supermarket, it just can't be.

As someone with a very good understanding of this sector and downtown planning, let me tell you, the above is wrong.

Walking distance in this calculation is 1km or 15 minutes of travel time for the average person on foot.

That is 100% do-able, and I already showed multiple examples.

Here, try this, it's not comprehensive, I just picked a smattering of downtown markets, the circles are 1km radius around the stores:

Anything in green is within 1km of a supermarket now. So it's not at all unrealistic to knock out the remaining gaps. (the N-W gap by the way is mostly covered by T&T)

There are essentially only 2 real pockets in DT not served by at least one full-service market. The TMU Metro also partially fills the central gap.

 

[SKULL_KRUSHER]

but what makes sense to you and what you think we should we strive for is a completely different conversation no matter how "Loves" DSC gives your posts.

The fact of the matter is, it's not realistic. Not every home in DT Toronto can be within walking distance from a supermarket, it just can't be. I think every home in the suburbs should be walking distance from a supermarket too as lots of people can't afford a vehicle in the suburbs, and that's not possible either. These are for profit companies, and if it doesn't make business sense for them to open up a location, the won't.

So what exactly are we discussing here?

I disagree. I think it's possible for all home in the core to be within walking distance (1 km) of a grocery store. That is ABSOLUTELY possible, if not already the case for the most part.

Edit: just saw Northern Light's post above. Case in point.

 

[SKULL_KRUSHER]

I have thought about it, and if one of my two jobs wasn't in Markham I would probably think about it quite a bit more. Second, because I choose not to live downtown in order save some money to put towards car which is more important to me then living downtown at this time in my life. It might change at some point, but right now that's my choice.

I dont "seem" to think it's not unreasonable to take a cab to get groceries. People both in DT Toronto and the Suburbs have been doing it for decades. My mother had to it. It's simply not unreasonable. If you don't like living more then 3k away from a grocery store, then you have to try and make sacrifices to move closer to place where there's one within walking distance. Just like any living situation, there's pros and cons, and you have to weigh them out and figure out what's important to you and make the choice within your budget. The argument because you chose to live downtown there should be grocery store "walking distance" doesn't fly with me. I have a little sympathy for people who chose a specific building near a supermarket if it closed on them after moving in, but once again that can happen in the suburbs. Having a grocery store within walking distance just because you live DT isn't some right of passage. It's a perk and a benefit. If the for profit supermarkets companies don't put one your area cause it doesn't make business sense, then like everyone else in the city you have to figure it out.

It's not a "rite of passage". It's literally just what happens to be the case for most people in downtown, so it has become expected.

Also, I have lived downtown my whole life and I don't know a SINGLE person that takes a taxi/uber to do their grocery shopping.

 

[C-mac]

As someone with a very good understanding of this sector and downtown planning, let me tell you, the above is wrong.

Walking distance in this calculation is 1km or 15 minutes of travel time for the average person on foot.

That is 100% do-able, and I already showed multiple examples.

Here, try this, its not comprehensive, I just picked a smattering of downtown markets, the circles are 1km radius around the stores:

View attachment 490493

Anything in green is within 1km of a supermarket now. So its not at all unrealistic to knock out the remaining gaps. (the N-W gap by the way is mostly covered by T&T)

There are essentially only 2 real pockets in DT not served by at least one full-service market. The TMU Metro also partially fills the central gap.

Yes NL, I get that from a geographical point, but it has to make sense for the business and there's tons of variables we're probably not privy to as to if it's profitible. Is your stance that there's not enough retail space to put them so they're not opening them?

 

[C-mac]

, so it has become expected.

and that's the issue right there.

 

[egotrippin]

I have thought about it, and if one of my two jobs wasn't in Markham I would probably think about it quite a bit more. Second, because I choose not to live downtown in order save some money to put towards car which is more important to me then living downtown at this time in my life. It might change at some point, but right now that's my choice.

I dont "seem" to think it's not unreasonable to take a cab to get groceries. People both in DT Toronto and the Suburbs have been doing it for decades. My mother had to it. It's simply not unreasonable. If you don't like living more then 3k away from a grocery store, then you have to try and make sacrifices to move closer to place where there's one within walking distance. Just like any living situation, there's pros and cons, and you have to weigh them out and figure out what's important to you and make the choice within your budget. The argument because you chose to live downtown there should be grocery store "walking distance" doesn't fly with me. I have a little sympathy for people who chose a specific building near a supermarket if it closed on them after moving in, but once again that can happen in the suburbs. Having a grocery store within walking distance just because you live DT isn't some right of passage. It's a perk and a benefit. If the for profit supermarkets companies don't put one your area cause it doesn't make business sense, then like everyone else in the city you have to figure it out.

So you do need your car for more than golf. I get it, that's fair. I also live in the suburbs and have a car for a number of reasons.

As far as a grocery store within walking distance though, what you're saying has been largely refuted with empirical, evidence-based reasoning. You might not think people are "entitled" to a grocery store within walking distance, but it's very clearly a possibility in a large city, where car use is being discouraged (or ought to be), and not at all an unreasonable expectation for an important service. I think it's time to throw the towel in on this one.

 

[Northern Light]

Yes NL, I get that from a geographical point, but it has to make sense for the business and there's tons of variables we're probably not privy to as to if it's profitible. Is your stance that there's not enough retail space to put them so they're not opening them?

Please read my posts thoroughly.

I have already stated that several new supermarkets ARE coming to downtown, that negotiations ARE underway, and public announcements will be made in the next while.

What you said is that it was unrealistic to have every downtown resident within 1km of a supermarket.

I was a bit more comprehensive below. Everyone one living in a green area IS within 1km of a supermarket today! (in point of fact, just to play it safe, I actually set the radius to 900M, so coverage could be close to 100%.

Other than a pocket right along University from Queen to Dundas, the only unserved area is close to the river

PS, there are 2 supermarkets planned for this area that I know of, not in the heart of it, but that will cover the entire area in green.

 

[C-mac]

So you do need your car for more than golf. I get it, that's fair. I also live in the suburbs and have a car for a number of reasons.

As far as a grocery store within walking distance though, what you're saying has been largely refuted with empirical, evidence-based reasoning. You might not think people are "entitled" to a grocery store within walking distance, but it's very clearly a possibility in a large city, where car use is being discouraged (or ought to be), and not at all an unreasonable expectation for an important service. I think it's time to throw the towel in on this one.

No I absolutely won't throw in the towel. Every single argument that's been made in thread, can be applied to the suburbs no problem. There has not been one response so far, that can justify having a supermarket walkable for every home in DT, other then "well I moved DT so there should be one within walking distance". You want to talk traffic, congestion, finance anything you want, and there is a comparable or fair rebuttal behind this logic. The narrative being pushed here is "well because I chose to live downtown, there should be supermarket within walking distance". We can make the argument that opening up more supermarkets downtown will cause more delivery trucks which is bad for the environment and will ad to congestion ...blah...blah...blah. As I said earlier, we can sit here and go back and forth all day on this.

At the end of the day, the supermarkets put locations where there's a demand in order to be profitable for them, not because they want' to convenience people.

 

[Northern Light]

No I absolutely won't throw in the towel. Every single argument that's been made in thread, can be applied to the suburbs no problem. There has not been one response so far, that can justify having a supermarket walkable for every home in DT, other then "well I moved DT so there should be one within walking distance". You want to talk traffic, congestion, finance anything you want, and there is a comparable or fair rebuttal behind this logic. The narrative being pushed here is "well because I chose to live downtown, there should be supermarket within walking distance". We can make the argument that opening up more supermarkets downtown will cause more delivery trucks which is bad for the environment and will ad to congestion ...blah...blah...blah. As I said earlier, we can sit here and go back and forth all day on this.

At the end of the day, the supermarkets put locations where there's a demand in order to be profitable for them, not because they want' to convenience people.

You are being contemptibly and offensively ridiculous.

I posted a clear image showing 90% of downtown residents ARE within 1km of a supermarket.

And told you clearly that current plans will make that at least 97%, maybe 100%.

You need to stop posting if you cannot acknowledge when you've been PROVEN wrong.

 

[C-mac]

o

Please read my posts thoroughly.

I have already stated that several new supermarkets ARE coming to downtown, that negotiations ARE underway, and public announcements will be made in the next while.

What you said is that it was unrealistic to have every downtown resident within 1km of a supermarket.

I was a bit more comprehensive below. Everyone one living in a green area IS within 1km of a supermarket today! (in point of fact, just to play it safe, I actually set the radius to 900M, so coverage could be close to 100%.

View attachment 490494

Other than a pocket right along University from Queen to Dundas, the only unserved area is close to the river

View attachment 490495

PS, there are 2 supermarkets planned for this area that I know of, not in the heart of it, but that will cover the entire area in green.

okay, so like I said from the get, if the demand is there they will put one there.


So my statement regarding not having one walkable for every home in DT, only by my other statement that if there's a demand they will put one there somewhat still holds.

Pretty much what I said from the beginning.

 

[C-mac]

You are being contemptibly and offensively ridiculous.

I posted a clear image showing 90% of downtown residents ARE within 1km of a supermarket.

And told you clearly that current plans will make that at least 97%, maybe 100%.

You need to stop posting if you cannot acknowledge when you've been PROVEN wrong.

give me a break guy. Don't come at me with you need to "stop posting". Who do you think you are?

And chill out, I read your post and replied. I'm also working right now I have to read these and reply fast. Is that okay with you?

 

[Rascacielo]

Please read my posts thoroughly.

I have already stated that several new supermarkets ARE coming to downtown, that negotiations ARE underway, and public announcements will be made in the next while.

What you said is that it was unrealistic to have every downtown resident within 1km of a supermarket.

I was a bit more comprehensive below. Everyone one living in a green area IS within 1km of a supermarket today! (in point of fact, just to play it safe, I actually set the radius to 900M, so coverage could be close to 100%.

View attachment 490494

Other than a pocket right along University from Queen to Dundas, the only unserved area is close to the river

View attachment 490495

PS, there are 2 supermarkets planned for this area that I know of, not in the heart of it, but that will cover the entire area in green.

I think the second set of maps are more accurate. The first set doesn't seem to have T&T on College or even the Metro on Bloor just east of Spadina (granted, that may be redeveloped soon, but not for a few a years). As for SE downtown (Corktown, etc), wouldn't the Freshco at Parliament & Dundas and the No Frills on Front just east of Parliament be within 1 km walking distance?

FYI I live downtown and am lucky enough to have 6-7 grocery stores within 1 km. But even if that wasn't the case, I would never take a cab/Uber to do groceries, as I could always bike or take the TTC. I live by myself though, so I don't need tons of groceries. Anyway, this is a moot point now - at least 80% of downtown residences are within 1 km of grocery stores, with more to come, as you pointed out.

 

[Northern Light]

give me a break guy. Don't come at me with you need to "stop posting". Who do you think you are?

I'm not 'coming at you'.

It's a suggestion/request that you take your time before posting to do quality control.

We all make mistakes, when you're caught making one, you just acknowledge that and move on; you don't double and triple down on being wrong.

I'm plenty chill, my blood is not boiling, I'm not cursing you out.

I am asking you to stop correcting other people, myself included, who have proven that you are wrong, factually, beyond any room for doubt.

****

I'm done w/this thread for now, and you can go back on ignore, where I should have left you.

 

[SKULL_KRUSHER]

give me a break guy. Don't come at me with you need to "stop posting". Who do you think you are?

And chill out, I read your post and replied. I'm also working right now I have to read these and reply fast. Is that okay with you?

It's just extremely tiresome to have you insisting on dragging this conversation on when it's clear that you're wrong about every house in DT not being within walking distance of a grocery store. You initially said that's not possible. It clearly is. You suggested that people downtown should expect to take an uber/taxi to get groceries; that's clearly not happening. The suburbs are different because stuff is spread out. There aren't even sidewalks in many suburbs. The same arguments most certainly do not apply where it is large single family homes on large lots compared to dense townhouses/condo towers.