Perceptions of Accesible Retail Downtown

[A Torontonian Now]

I tend to agree with both sides here. It is a reasonable expectation to have groceries within walking distance downtown. But I don't see a threat of the Metro being overwhelmed. And in addition to that, there is the market itself, presumably an amenity that attracted many to the hood, plus several Rabbas and other assorted places where you can grab a few things. By the time the No Frills closes, there should be a new supermarket open in Corktown. I think it's inevitable that others will be coming as the population here increases.

 

[C-mac]

Looking at Google maps, there is a surprising dearth of grocery options in Saint Lawrence/Corktown. I also think it's reasonable for the city councillor to work with a developer to ensure there are large retail footprints in the pipeline - and not just hope the market will sort it out.

Groceries shouldn't be a "short drive" away for people living downtown - not if we care about traffic/congestion. The whole point of dense living is to avoid the use of a car.

The grocery stores don't care about traffic/congestion. They care about profitability. The whole point of living downtown isn't about "dense" living. It is dense living but that's not the "point of it". People like living doing downtown because it has many perks to offer. Your a short walk/streetcar/bus/taxi away from many things such as theatres, concert halls, sports venues, night clubs, restaurants...and wait for it.....SUPERMARKETS. There are tons of taxi's already on the streets downtown vacant waiting for people to get in them. Don't make it sound like a supermarket not every corner is going to change the landscape of downtown traffic congestion. Traffic congestion is actually worse in many other parts of the city then downtown, and we don't add grocery stores to the them to help decrease traffic congestion. Your making it sound like grocery stores have obligation to open to help traffic. They are a for profit business, and if the demand is there they will open one.

 

[Parkdalian]

The grocery stores don't care about traffic/congestion. They care about profitability. The whole point of living downtown isn't about "dense" living. It is dense living but that's not the "point of it". People like living doing downtown because it has many perks to offer. Your a short walk/streetcar/bus/taxi away from many things such as theatres, concert halls, sports venues, night clubs, restaurants...and wait for it.....SUPERMARKETS. There are tons of taxi's already on the streets downtown vacant waiting for people to get in them. Don't make it sound like a supermarket not every corner is going to change the landscape of downtown traffic congestion. Traffic congestion is actually worse in many other parts of the city then downtown, and we don't add grocery stores to the them to help decrease traffic congestion. Your making it sound like grocery stores have obligation to open to help traffic. They are a for profit business, and if the demand is there they will open one.

Once again, no one is advocating for a grocery store on every corner? This is a strawman argument.

The marketplace is good at figuring out where demand for, say, a grocery is required. However, grocers need certain retail sizes to make their stores profitable. If a neighbourhood is being built in a way where there are no large retail floorplates, there may be a big demand for grocers, but no profitable way for a grocer to enter that market. Part of urban planning is to ensure that gaps like this don't exist in the urban fabric. Reducing traffic congestion is also an aspect of urban planning - and making sure residents don't have to drive everywhere is a key part of that.

I also think it's funny that you think there are taxis everywhere. In my experience, post pandemic, taxis are actually quite hard to locate downtown!

 

[urbanexplorer]

The grocery stores don't care about traffic/congestion. They care about profitability. The whole point of living downtown isn't about "dense" living. It is dense living but that's not the "point of it". People like living doing downtown because it has many perks to offer. Your a short walk/streetcar/bus/taxi away from many things such as theatres, concert halls, sports venues, night clubs, restaurants...and wait for it.....SUPERMARKETS. There are tons of taxi's already on the streets downtown vacant waiting for people to get in them. Don't make it sound like a supermarket not every corner is going to change the landscape of downtown traffic congestion. Traffic congestion is actually worse in many other parts of the city then downtown, and we don't add grocery stores to the them to help decrease traffic congestion. Your making it sound like grocery stores have obligation to open to help traffic. They are a for profit business, and if the demand is there they will open one.

I'm not sure that was the spirit of their post tbh. With all the new condo's going up and thousands of new residents, there will need to be more grocery options. I agree that city councillors purposefully working towards bringing more options to the neighborhood could be helpful. I think we all get your sentiment of "the market will figure itself out" but to the original question posed - where and when? Doesn't seem like a lot of spots being built are a good fit.

 

[Northern Light]

Just to sort this; more supermarkets are coming, negotiations are on-going, and announcements will be made in due course.

***

Most existing downtown supermarkets are doing a gangbusters business (apologies to Farm Boy at Sugar Wharf which is most certainly not.)

The numbers that Loblaws is doing at the Gardens are insane, all the Metros are very healthy indeed.

***

Edit to add, above and beyond 'new builds'. There are discussions with existing buildings that are part of 'The Path'.

 

[SKULL_KRUSHER]

I'm boggled by that fact you think it's "hyperbolic". There are 2 supermarkets within a 5 minute drive off this building and one that's a few minutes walk. How much closer do you want them to be???

Does your statement of "not every resident can afford an Uber every time they want groceries" include people outside downtown? Or does that only apply to folks living downtown?

Most people living outside downtown have lower rent............ because they are outside downtown. It's literally just a trade off. Some people want to own a car, have a bigger space, and are okay with driving to do their groceries and get to other event locations. Other people want to be able to walk most places, including their grocery store, even if it means higher rent and less space. I don't see how this is an issue. Nobody is entitled to a grocery store within walking distance, it just makes sense that it's an expectation for downtown living. That's kinda the whole point of downtown living for a lot of people.

The whole point of living downtown isn't about "dense" living. It is dense living but that's not the "point of it". People like living doing downtown because it has many perks to offer. Your a short walk/streetcar/bus/taxi away from many things such as theatres, concert halls, sports venues, night clubs, restaurants...and wait for it.....SUPERMARKETS

You literally just said the point of downtown living isn't about dense living, and then proceeded to explain how downtown living is about the things that come with density (i.e. being close to lots of stuff). Insisting that people who complain about no grocery stores within walking distance in a downtown neighbourhood are just entitled seems like a strange hill to die on imo. That's a legitimate complaint.

 

[C-mac]

By the time the No Frills closes, there should be a new supermarket open in Corktown.

Once again, no one is advocating for a grocery store on every corner? This is a strawman argument.

The marketplace is good at figuring out where demand for, say, a grocery is required. However, grocers need certain retail sizes to make their stores profitable. If a neighbourhood is being built in a way where there are no large retail floorplates, there may be a big demand for grocers, but no profitable way for a grocer to enter that market. Part of urban planning is to ensure that gaps like this don't exist in the urban fabric. Reducing traffic congestion is also an aspect of urban planning - and making sure residents don't have to drive everywhere is a key part of that.

I also think it's funny that you think there are taxis everywhere. In my experience, post pandemic, taxis are actually quite hard to locate downtown!

And as I have said a number of times, trust me, if the demand is there one will open. The whole DT core is about 2.5 X3.5k(Bloor to Queens Quay north and south, and from about Bathurst to Parliament east and west) I already illustrated 3 big supermarkets within a 5.3k stretch just from this building alone. That's not including all the Rabba's etc...

How much more closer do you want them? This convo started because the OP has fears his local Metro can't handle the influx in business because a few buildings are being developed in his area that probably won't be finished for another 5 years. My point was 3 Supermarkets within 5k is decently close, and if the area gets more dense, vacancies in retail spots will open up for supermarket banners to open up shop. They will renovate, do whatever, they always find a way.

I also can't speak for your personal taxi observation skills post pandemic. Maybe your not seeing as many cause there's more ubers...I don't know. I think it's funny that you think they are not everywhere...so stalemate I guess.

 

[DSC]

I think it just makes so much more sense from a congestion standpoint if people don't have to drive to do groceries. I've never owned a car and I cannot imagine taking a taxi to get groceries, especially given that I usually go get groceries for dinner right after work. Waiting for an uber in the peak of rush hour just to get my dinner ingredients? I'd rather move than live somewhere like that. I think it SHOULD be an expectation of downtown living that there will be groceries within walking distance. It just seems like a good idea for everyone involved.

Agree 100%. If you live in a densely populated urban area, you should be able to walk to buy groceries or other necessities.

 

[C-mac]

Most people living outside downtown have lower rent............ because they are outside downtown. It's literally just a trade off. Some people want to own a car, have a bigger space, and are okay with driving to do their groceries and get to other event locations. Other people want to be able to walk most places, including their grocery store, even if it means higher rent and less space. I don't see how this is an issue. Nobody is entitled to a grocery store within walking distance, it just makes sense that it's an expectation for downtown living. That's kinda the whole point of downtown living for a lot of people.


You literally just said the point of downtown living isn't about dense living, and then proceeded to explain how downtown living is about the things that come with density (i.e. being close to lots of stuff). Insisting that people who complain about no grocery stores within walking distance in a downtown neighbourhood are just entitled seems like a strange hill to die on imo. That's a legitimate complaint.

Right and what I'm saying is people live downtown not to be close to each other and packed like sardines. It's a byproduct of people living downtown because of the perks I mentioned. It's an attractable place to live. I would love to live downtown, but as you mentioned, my rent would go up and I can't afford that. I choose to have a car so I can go golfing once in a while. I made that choice. When you move downtown, you also make a choice and it's a trade off. That trade off includes most of things I mentioned, but unfortunately it's just not possible for everything to be a "walk away" when YOU CHOOSE to live downtown. Heck, you can even have your groceries delivered now if you feel so inclined. I'm simply saying, yes the odd person downtown is just out of a reach from it being walkable. So what is your suggestion?

 

[rdaner]

Don’t forget the Leo’s Marché that will open on Front Street in Canary District. While not ‘in the building’ it is only a 10 walk away.

 

[C-mac]

I'm not sure that was the spirit of their post tbh. With all the new condo's going up and thousands of new residents, there will need to be more grocery options. I agree that city councillors purposefully working towards bringing more options to the neighborhood could be helpful. I think we all get your sentiment of "the market will figure itself out" but to the original question posed - where and when? Doesn't seem like a lot of spots being built are a good fit.

and my point all along was basically for the op not worry about his local metro not being able to handle the extra business because a few buildings are popping up in his neighborhood in the next 5 years.

 

[SKULL_KRUSHER]

Right and what I'm saying is people live downtown not to bevclose to each other and packed like sardines. It's a byproduct of people living downtown because of the perks I mentioned. It's an attractable place to live. I would love to live downtown, but as you mentioned, my rent would go up and I can't afford that. I choose to have a car so I can go golfing once in a while. I made that choice. When you move downtown, you also make a choice and it's a trade off. That trade off includes most of things I mentioned, but unfortunately it's just not possible for everything to be a "walk away" when YOU CHOOSE to live downtown. Heck, you can even have your groceries delivered now if you feel so inclined. I'm simply saying, yes the odd person downtown is just out of a reach from it being walkable. So what is your suggestion?

My only suggestion is to not act like it's unreasonable to complain about your only grocery store within walking distance closing. That may have been a reason the person moved there in the first place. It's not entitlement (as you were initially suggesting) to be concerned about having to take a taxi to get groceries when you've always been able to walk.

 

[Northern Light]

And as I have said a number of times, trust me, if the demand is there one will open. The whole DT core is about 2.5 X3.5k(Bloor to Queens Quay north and south, and from about Bathurst to Parliament east and west) I already illustrated 3 big supermarkets within a 5.3k stretch. That's not including all the Rabba's etc...

Are you under the impression that 3 supermarkets within 5km (a 1h 15M walking distance at average speed, if not carrying anything) is a particularly robust number?

Danforth Avenue from Woodbine to Main Street has 3 full-service supermarkets (Valu-Mart, Sobeys, Metro), and 2 more immediately adjacent at Victoria Park/Gerrard (Freshco, Loblaws).

Yonge/College has 3 full service supermarkets within 500M (Bay to Church) (Farm Boy, Metro, Loblaws)

Yonge/Eglinton has 3 full service supermarkets within 1km2, (Metro, Farm Boy and Loblaws)

***

For contrast, a 1.2km2 area centred on Adelaide/Jarvis has 2 full service supermarkets.

There is certainly room for one more, based on existing density and another after that w/projected growth.

 

[SKULL_KRUSHER]

And as I have said a number of times, trust me, if the demand is there one will open. The whole DT core is about 2.5 X3.5k(Bloor to Queens Quay north and south, and from about Bathurst to Parliament east and west) I already illustrated 3 big supermarkets within a 5.3k stretch just from this building alone. That's not including all the Rabba's etc...

How much more closer do you want them? This convo started because the OP has fears his local Metro can't handle the influx in business because a few buildings are being developed in his area that probably won't be finished for another 5 years. My point was 3 Supermarkets within 5k is decently close, and if the area gets more dense, vacancies in retail spots will open up for supermarket banners to open up shop. They will renovate, do whatever, they always find a way.

I also can't speak for your personal taxi observation skills post pandemic. Maybe your not seeing as many cause there's more ubers...I don't know. I think it's funny that you think they are not everywhere...so stalemate I guess.

Also, 3 supermarkets within 5km isn't close AT ALL. Try walking even 3km carrying bags of groceries.

 

[C-mac]

Are you under the impression that 3 supermarkets within 5km (a 1h 15M walking distance at average speed, if not carrying anything) is a particularly robust number?

Danforth Avenue from Woodbine to Main Street has 3 full-service supermarkets (Valu-Mart, Sobeys, Metro), and 2 more immediately adjacent at Victoria Park/Gerrard (Freshco, Loblaws).

Yonge/College has 3 full service supermarkets within 500M (Bay to Church) (Farm Boy, Metro, Loblaws)

Yonge/Eglinton has 3 full service supermarkets within 1km2, (Metro, Farm Boy and Loblaws)

***

For contrast, a 1.2km2 area centred on Adelaide/Jarvis has 2 full service supermarkets.

There is certainly room for one more, based on existing density and another after that w/projected growth.

I wouldn't say is robust, but given my stance that everyone who lives downtown can't be within walking distance of grocery store, and might need to uber or taxi that's an acceptable distance.. The 5k I mentioned is from the two furthest from each other. Most people aren't living that far them. They live more like 3 k. How much is a 3k taxi ride these days?