Perceptions of Accesible Retail Downtown

[ML555]

Living right beside this proposal, and already witnessing two more towers being constructed with at least an additional two planned within a 300m radius, I cant help but think our local Metro (Grocer) is not able to handle an increase of several thousand people.

Edit: PS - Breaking up the mountainous and sloping character of buildings running east from its peak at the Scotiabank/CIBC/BMO cluster, is just wrong.

 

[C-mac]

Living right beside this proposal, and already witnessing two more towers being constructed with at least an additional two planned within a 300m radius, I cant help but think our local Metro is not able to handle an increase of several thousand people.

Edit: PS - Breaking up the mountainous and sloping character of buildings running east from its peak at the Scotiabank/CIBC/BMO cluster, is just wrong.

What makes you think they're all taking the metro?

 

[Rascacielo]

What makes you think they're all taking the metro?

I think he was referring to the grocery store nearby, not the subway

 

[C-mac]

I think he was referring to the grocery store nearby, not the subway

Oh God....he need not worry. There's more then enough groceries stores to go around. If there's a demand, one of the places will open up shop near by. I actually thought he might be referring to that but said to myself "there's no way he's talking about a grocery store"...lol.

 

[condovo]

Oh God....he need not worry. There's more then enough groceries stores to go around. If there's a demand, one of the places will open up shop near by. I actually thought he might be referring to that but said to myself "there's no way he's talking about a grocery store"...lol.

There's more than enough groceries to go around? In St. Lawrence neighbourhood? Umm, I can think of only two, Metro at Church and Front and No Frills at Front and Princess, both of which are very busy already. And there's a strong possibility that No Frills will be closing soon to make way for a new development.

Loblaws at Queens Quay isn't walking distance for folks in St. Lawrence and St. Lawrence Market is pretty pricey (so is Metro). With all the new condos coming into the 'hood, there will have to be at least two additional supermarkets, as far as I can tell. I can't think of a single location in the area big enough to accommodate a store that size.

Overburdened or lack of neighbourhood supermarkets is a legitimate concern, especially for those without a car. (But I'll literally crawl to Aldi if they ever come to Canada.)

 

[C-mac]

There's more than enough groceries to go around? In St. Lawrence neighbourhood? Umm, I can think of only two, Metro at Church and Front and No Frills at Front and Princess, both of which are very busy already. And there's a strong possibility that No Frills will be closing soon to make way for a new development.

Loblaws at Queens Quay isn't walking distance for folks in St. Lawrence and St. Lawrence Market is pretty pricey (so is Metro). With all the new condos coming into the 'hood, there will have to be at least two additional supermarkets, as far as I can tell. I can't think of a single location in the area big enough to accommodate a store that size.

Overburdened or lack of neighbourhood supermarkets is a legitimate concern, especially for those without a car. (But I'll literally crawl to Aldi if they ever come to Canada.)

Trust me, they will open in the area if there is a demand. People that run these businesses do their homework and generally speaking know if a location will work.

P.S, Why do you feel because you live downtown that your entitled to a supermarket that's walking distance?

There are tons of places in Toronto where people can't walk to the supermarket. There's no supermarket that's walking distance from my house, and I don't expect a supermarket to be walking distance from every home. You realize an uber/taxi can get you to the Lower Jarvis or to Church and College Lablaws in 5 minutes from 23 Toronto street right??

And this is on top of the notion that the local Metro "can't handle" a few more thousand residents in the area which is extremely debatable. I don't even know how one could make this claim without working in procurement in the industry.

 

[Sunnyside]

Trust me, they will open in the area if there is a demand. People that run these businesses do their homework and generally speaking know if a location will work.

P.S, Why do you feel because you live downtown that your entitled to a supermarket that's walking distance?

There are tons of places in Toronto where people can't walk to the supermarket. There's no supermarket that's walking distance from my house, and I don't expect a supermarket to be walking distance from every home. You realize an uber/taxi can get you to the Lower Jarvis or to Church and College Lablaws in 5 minutes from 23 Toronto street right??

And this is on top of the notion that the local Metro "can't handle" a few more thousand residents in the area which is extremely debatable. I don't even know how one could make this claim without working in procurement in the industry.

You raise great points and illuminated a lot of your own experience, but I think @condovo ‘s concerns show us that the expectations of living right downtown is that it should come with all amenities within walking distance, particularly at densities such as this. It’s not wholly grounded in business realities, but it’s certainly a real and natural expectation. I too would expect a grocer to be within walking distance if I lived downtown- why subject yourself to that busy lifestyle if you can’t even meet your needs within it?

With that said, it seems like there are grocers within walking distance of OP… and in my experience, you are very correct in stating that grocers pay very close attention to demand. If there is a niche, they will fill it. They kinda have to; margins are so thin, demand so Inelastic, that you cannot miss an opportunity. Grocers will more eagerly over-expand, if anything, just for the sake of competition. But that is also my lived experience, not so much from the industry.

 

[C-mac]

but I think @condovo ‘s concerns show us that the expectations of living right downtown is that it should come with all amenities within walking distance

Not to derail this thread any further, but I still don't buy this. Maybe it's the wrong expectation? Again, there's two Lablaws within 5 minutes taxi from this site. How much is a 5 minute taxi ride? Like 5 bucks? And again, that's only if the the local Metro can't keep the shelves stocked because a few extra buildings are going up in the area.

 

[SKULL_KRUSHER]

Not to derail this thread any further, but I still don't buy this. Maybe it's the wrong expectation? Again, there's two Lablaws within 5 minutes taxi from this site. How much is a 5 minute taxi ride? Like 5 bucks? And again, that's only if the the local Metro can't keep the shelves stocked because a few extra buildings are going up in the area.

I think it just makes so much more sense from a congestion standpoint if people don't have to drive to do groceries. I've never owned a car and I cannot imagine taking a taxi to get groceries, especially given that I usually go get groceries for dinner right after work. Waiting for an uber in the peak of rush hour just to get my dinner ingredients? I'd rather move than live somewhere like that. I think it SHOULD be an expectation of downtown living that there will be groceries within walking distance. It just seems like a good idea for everyone involved.

 

[C-mac]

I think it just makes so much more sense from a congestion standpoint if people don't have to drive to do groceries. I've never owned a car and I cannot imagine taking a taxi to get groceries, especially given that I usually go get groceries for dinner right after work. Waiting for an uber in the peak of rush hour just to get my dinner ingredients? I'd rather move than live somewhere like that. I think it SHOULD be an expectation of downtown living that there will be groceries within walking distance. It just seems like a good idea for everyone involved.

It's a good idea for anyone with that expectation. Nobody is forcing anyone to live downtown. We all choose where we live for various reasons. To think a super market should be on every corner downtown is unreasonable just so anyone that lives downtown can walk to one. A 5 minute uber/taxi is not unreasonable at all even in rush hour.

As I said, there very smart people running these places, and if the demand is there to support another store, one will be put there. Otherwise, like most people in Toronto, if its not walking distance you have to figure it out.

 

[urbanexplorer]

It's a good idea for anyone with that expectation. Nobody is forcing anyone to live downtown. We all choose where we live for various reasons. To think a super market should be on every corner downtown is unreasonable just so anyone that lives downtown can walk to one. A 5 minute uber/taxi is not unreasonable at all even in rush hour.

As I said, they’re very smart people running these places, and if the demand is there to support another store, one will be put there. Otherwise, like most people in Toronto, if it’s not walking distance you have to figure it out.

I’m boggled at the statement that people downtown should not expect a grocery store within walking distance . The notion above of having to have one on every corner in order to fulfill this need is hyperbolic, at best.

The term “food desert” is a very real thing and if the no frills closes, is a very real possibility for the individuals closer to distillery (god help those in corktown common area). Not every resident can afford an Uber every time they want groceries, my friend.

 

[tripwire]

No Frills will be closing when construction starts in that plot of land right? Although they (or some other grocer) will re-open in the same spot, but that's still a good 5 year absence at least. I think "entitled" is too strong a word, but I do hope that as density around this area (and Front/Sherbourne) that more options will appear. But groceries tend to require a bigger footprint than the regular commercial shop, so it really needs to be part of development planning too.

 

[C-mac]

I’m boggled at the statement that people downtown should not expect a grocery store within walking distance . The notion above of having to have one on every corner in order to fulfill this need is hyperbolic, at best.

The term “food desert” is a very real thing and if the no frills closes, is a very real possibility for the individuals closer to distillery (god help those in corktown common area). Not every resident can afford an Uber every time they want groceries, my friend.

I'm boggled by that fact you think it's "hyperbolic". There are 2 supermarkets within a 5 minute drive off this building and one that's a few minutes walk. How much closer do you want them to be???

Does your statement of "not every resident can afford an Uber every time they want groceries" include people outside downtown? Or does that only apply to folks living downtown?

 

[C-mac]

No Frills will be closing when construction starts in that plot of land right? Although they (or some other grocer) will re-open in the same spot, but that's still a good 5 year absence at least. I think "entitled" is too strong a word, but I do hope that as density around this area (and Front/Sherbourne) that more options will appear. But groceries tend to require a bigger footprint than the regular commercial shop, so it really needs to be part of development planning too.

I'm telling you if there's a demand, one of the banners will open up shop.

 

[Parkdalian]

Looking at Google maps, there is a surprising dearth of grocery options in Saint Lawrence/Corktown. I also think it's reasonable for the city councillor to work with a developer to ensure there are large retail footprints in the pipeline - and not just hope the market will sort it out.

Groceries shouldn't be a "short drive" away for people living downtown - not if we care about traffic/congestion. The whole point of dense living is to avoid the use of a car.