Ottawa Transit Developments

[smallspy]

Wait a minute... so is Alstom saying we need some silly tram rail for their equipment or just rail like European UIC 60 rail vs AREMA 132 RE?? If they are saying they are only going to build equipment for some special tram rail then this is even dumber than I thought. The whole point of going to standard gauge vs TTC gauge is to NOT need a bunch of unique rail and bogies.

No, that doesn't seem to be what Alstom is saying here.

But they have been consistent in their proclamation that their trucks under the Citadis Spirit aren't the culprit. They have tried to blame the rails, the geometry, and the restraining rails.

Which I now believe is wrong. The trucks are the problem. They are a unique design not used anywhere else in the world. And particular to their design, they aren't as stable at supporting the bearings, which would explain why Ottawa is having so many bearing issues.

Dan

 

[urbanclient]

Does anyone know what is so different about Iponam (Ixège POur North AMerica; used on Alstom Citadis Spirits) compared to the regular Ixège bogies?

Doesn't seem to be an issue of pivoting vs. kinda pivoting vs. non-pivoting bogies. As far as I can tell, trams with some bogies being non-pivoting Ixège still perform better than Spirits in tight turns.

2015 Brochure for Alstom Bogies:

https://web.archive.org/web/20150921232307/http://www.alstom.com/Global/Transport/Resources/Documents/brochure2014/Alstom%20Bogies%20Catalogue%202015%20-%20English.pdf?epslanguage=en-GB

 

[smallspy]

Does anyone know what is so different about Iponam (Ixège POur North AMerica; used on Alstom Citadis Spirits) compared to the regular Ixège bogies?

Doesn't seem to be an issue of pivoting vs. kinda pivoting vs. non-pivoting bogies. As far as I can tell, trams with some bogies being non-pivoting Ixège still perform better than Spirits in tight turns.

2015 Brochure for Alstom Bogies:

https://web.archive.org/web/20150921232307/http://www.alstom.com/Global/Transport/Resources/Documents/brochure2014/Alstom%20Bogies%20Catalogue%202015%20-%20English.pdf?epslanguage=en-GB

The main difference is that they are an inside bearing design versus an outside bearing design. The bearings are mounted inboard of the wheels, versus outboard.

This by itself is not unusual. What is unusual is the truck frame in concert with the swing-link suspension AND the outside-hung motors, which use gearboxes to transmit power on the outside of the wheels.

Because of the design, the axles are free to swing in an arc as they move through their suspension range, rather than a pedestal design where they are constrained to only move vertically. And the outside-hung motors mean that there is a torque applied to the end of the axle well outside of both the wheel and the bearing support.

I don't know of any other single LRV design that uses trucks like this. And that includes the Citadis' back in Europe and Africa.

Dan

 

[APTA-2048]

Is Alstom gonna change this, so that the cars for Philadelphia and Quebec use the typical bogie design in Europe?

 

[smallspy]

Is Alstom gonna change this, so that the cars for Philadelphia and Quebec use the typical bogie design in Europe?

Considering that they seem to be doubling-down on emphasizing "repairing" the existing design to improve its durability, my guess is no.

But then again, the Philly cars are going to be a far more bespoke design akin to the Flexity Outlook cars on Toronto's legacy network, so they may be basing the basic car and truck design on something totally different.

Dan

 

[CapitalSeven]

Is Alstom gonna change this, so that the cars for Philadelphia and Quebec use the typical bogie design in Europe?

I don't know anything about the Philadelphia system so I wasted nearly an hour trying to find out online. And you can't. It's still in the design phase. But judging from the illustrations you can find, and some bits of info here and there, it seems to be a shrunken version of the Citadis cars used on Eglinton (not Finch/Ottawa) or even aspects of the Toronto streetcar, perhaps 80 feet long and with only 2 doors. They are replacing a fleet of Kawasaki vehicles 50 and 53 feet long, and some PCCs. I take it a 100-foot vehicle off the shelf wouldn't work. Reading about the system kind of makes me want to visit, but it's in the evil empire. I'm sure someone on here has been and has some insights.

The Quebec system seems to be up in the air as well. A stretch version of the trams was ordered then put on hold.

I would be extremely surprised if either city accepted the Ottawa Spirit platform after all the problems, and none of the renderings you can find suggest they have.

 

[NoahB]

I don't know anything about the Philadelphia system so I wasted nearly an hour trying to find out online. And you can't. It's still in the design phase. But judging from the illustrations you can find, and some bits of info here and there, it seems to be a shrunken version of the Citadis cars used on Eglinton (not Finch/Ottawa) or even aspects of the Toronto streetcar, perhaps 80 feet long and with only 2 doors. They are replacing a fleet of Kawasaki vehicles 50 and 53 feet long, and some PCCs. I take it a 100-foot vehicle off the shelf wouldn't work. Reading about the system kind of makes me want to visit, but it's in the evil empire. I'm sure someone on here has been and has some insights.

The Quebec system seems to be up in the air as well. A stretch version of the trams was ordered then put on hold.

I would be extremely surprised if either city accepted the Ottawa Spirit platform after all the problems, and none of the renderings you can find suggest they have.

I think you have gotten all your train model names mixed up.
Eglinton uses Flexity Freedom, and the TTC Streetcars use Flexity Outlook. Formally made by Bombardier. Now part of Alstom.
Ottawa's Line 1/Confederation Line uses Alstom's Citadis Spirit.