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Ottawa Transit Developments

ARG1 said:
Well do you have a PC with an internet connection? Clearly you since if you're typing here. If you have to deal with 30 minute frequencies, always plan your trips ahead of time. See what can or cannot be done - see how long a trip takes so that you can make intuitions ahead of time. Now I agree that dealing with 30 minute frequencies is a pain, but I'll talk about that later.

Most of the slowdown occurs from having to weight for the oncoming train to catchup or viceversa. While the extended length of the trains could result in slowdowns in certain scenerios, the increased acceleration will help deflect those negatives. I'd argue that train acceleration is one of the biggest issues that the Trillium Line faces - it takes a long time for the train to accelerate from standstill to max speed - especially when compared to the Confederation Line. An improvement in acceleration will do wonders to improving the service quality of the line.

As for cities that do as much as Line 2 with a single track, there are plenty of services in Japan and East Asia that fit a ton of trips and rides on single tracked lines, Montreal's REM will have the tunnel leading into the Airport completely single tracked, many regional rail services in many european cities (which for the record is what Line 2 is trying to emulate) have single tracked sections even with tight headways, there are plenty.

There's a simple rule to follow my friend. Organization > Technology > Concrete. In short, if one wants to make improvements to a transit system, the order of priority should be 1) Reorganize the system and what you have to better suit the needs of the city and the network, 2) Invest in new technologies to upgrade what you already have, and last and at the very bottom of the priority list: 3) Get shovels in the ground and build something.

Let's go through this process step by step, and in this case let's look at Step 1) Organization. Your issue is that the LRT and busses arrive at desynchronized times which can lead someone to barely miss a connection and wait for 30 minutes. How can we reorganize the system to avoid this issue? We have 2 options, reorganize the LRT, or reorganize the bus. The LRT has track restrictions requiring it to operate at set intervals, and as such organizational flexibility is extremely minimal We can go back to the old 15 minute headways, however this would require worsening the capacity of the line - capacity that it desperately needs. Otherwise, we have the option to modify the bus, and here we have far more flexibility. We can get the bus wait at the stop for the train if it reaches the station close the train, or we can run busses more frequently so that at no point would anyone ever have to wait 30 minutes for a bus. If we look at Toronto, even in the most suburbiest of suburbs, you will still see core bus routes that travel anywhere between 10-15 minutes, and as such an issue such as "The bus left and now I have to wait 30 minutes for the next bus because the subway was 1 minute late to the station" never happens. This in turn also makes less frequent services such as the GO train far more reliable since even though the Barrie/Stouffville Lines only run hourly, one of the modes you need are guaranteed to show up at a reliable frequent time.

In short, Line 2 isn't at fault here - it isn't the weakest link in the chain. The solution here is to not run busses every 30 minutes - that headway is ridiculous. Even if we added more tracks to Line 2 and got headways down to 3-5 minutes, you can still be 2 minutes late to the bus and now "oops", you have to wait 30 minutes.

Except we do. We are building Rapid Transit Stations like Hurdman and Tunney's Pasture that have great connections to bus routes with fare-paid zones. If we compare how the O-Train designs its stations with how Toronto designs its stations, its actually more or less on par. The sad reality of the O-Train network is that the failings aren't with the hard concrete. In terms of alignment (mostly), station design, design philosophy and standards, the O-Train is a 9/10. The station layouts are great, the way the stations connect to nearby bus routes is fantastic, and the route it travels through is amazing. The issue isn't with the rapid transit we're building, its purely with the local transit we're running. We need more busses, more connections, higher frequencies. The O-train isn't at fault for this... the only thing its at fault for is the more low level design issues such as mode and rolling stock choice.
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We will have to agree to disagree.

Flirt trains will be interoperating with the old Lint trains on the main line. This means that train schedules need to work for both train types. Again, the inflexibility of single track operations.

Ottawa is not going to implement TTC style bus frequencies. 30 minute service is the normal service level on most local routes in off-peak hours. As soon as you tinker with that, then bus to bus transfers will also fail or you have to improve frequencies on every route, which is not going to happen. It is certainly easier to plan around a more frequent rail line.

Obviously, you have missed the complaints about station designs particularly Hurdman that recently appeared in the Ottawa discussion group.

I will not be surprised if we revert to 15 minute frequency on Line 2. We will still have ample capacity with the new trains having double the capacity.
 
lrt's friend said:
Flirt trains will be interoperating with the old Lint trains on the main line. This means that train schedules need to work for both train types. Again, the inflexibility of single track operations.
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I don't really see how double tracking would help. They'll both use the same signaling tech, and I'm not sure the difference in acceleration will be significant (if any).
lrt's friend said:
Ottawa is not going to implement TTC style bus frequencies.
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But you expect them to double the scale of a massive capital investment solely for this purpose?
 
OCCheetos said:
I don't really see how double tracking would help. They'll both use the same signaling tech, and I'm not sure the difference in acceleration will be significant (if any).

But you expect them to double the scale of a massive capital investment solely for this purpose?
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We could have purchased more Lint trains and doubled the frequency if there was double tracking. I am not the one who brought up the acceleration issue.

I would happy if they addressed transfer problem. That could have been done by replacing the Walkley overpass. They said that this alone would have delivered 10 minute frequency, making for more predictable transfers.

Of course, we are spending a pile of money on the airport spur which is of very questionable value given the double transfer required to get downtown. So, what about our spending priorities?
 
With 30 min bus service, Ottawa doesn't have a full transit system. It effectively has two tier service. Two rapid transit corridors. And crap bus service for everybody who doesn't live within walking distance of a station.

One could argue that Ottawa needs less rail and more buses, if they are forced to choose.
 
lrt's friend said:
Flirt trains will be interoperating with the old Lint trains on the main line. This means that train schedules need to work for both train types. Again, the inflexibility of single track operations.
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We'll see about that
lrt's friend said:
Ottawa is not going to implement TTC style bus frequencies. 30 minute service is the normal service level on most local routes in off-peak hours. As soon as you tinker with that, then bus to bus transfers will also fail or you have to improve frequencies on every route, which is not going to happen. It is certainly easier to plan around a more frequent rail line.
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So you're telling me that Brampton can pull this off, but Ottawa can't? Brampton > Ottawa confirmed guys :/
lrt's friend said:
Obviously, you have missed the complaints about station designs particularly Hurdman that recently appeared in the Ottawa discussion group.
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Hurdman Station does have some issues, its not perfect - however none of it has to do with how easy it is to transfer. Its mostly related to how confusing it is to actually enter the station. The way its designed makes entering the station by casually walking into through the bus terminal extremely appealing which makes you avoid the fare gates: It incentivizes you to skip paying your fare. You can also argue that the Hurdman curve west of the station is a problem - but that has little to do with the station itself, and more just stupid track allignment.
lrt's friend said:
I will not be surprised if we revert to 15 minute frequency on Line 2. We will still have ample capacity with the new trains having double the capacity.
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I really doubt that, like really really doubt that, especially since the entire line will be double tracked from Bayview to Gladstone - meaning that one of those 2 slow down points for the line will be omitted altogether.
 
ARG1 said:
Hurdman Station does have some issues, its not perfect - however none of it has to do with how easy it is to transfer. Its mostly related to how confusing it is to actually enter the station. The way its designed makes entering the station by casually walking into through the bus terminal extremely appealing which makes you avoid the fare gates: It incentivizes you to skip paying your fare. You can also argue that the Hurdman curve west of the station is a problem - but that has little to do with the station itself, and more just stupid track allignment.
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Can confirm Hurdman is confusing as hell to enter.

Went to Ottawa and used the replacement bus service for the first time ever (wouldve been my first time using the O-Train if Ottawa didnt decide to have another issue with the Line) and I pretty much almost walked in through where the buses enter the station, as I had no idea where the entrance was. Eventually I figured it out, but yes the station design doesnt make it easy.
 
robmausser said:
Everyone was blaming the construction of the line and the actaul vehicles built by Alstom when this thing debuted but it sounds more and more that the issues with this line are with how its being operated and maintained.
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Exactly. This project is giving Alstom a bad name when the operator can't even do maintenance properly. It's like putting the wrong gas in a Toyota and saying their cars suck after breaking down.
 
Steve X said:
Exactly. This project is giving Alstom a bad name when the operator can't even do maintenance properly. It's like putting the wrong gas in a Toyota and saying their cars suck after breaking down.
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I don't think anyone is blaming Alstom, it was RTG and the city that chose the vehicles. Even Alstom at some point came in and asked the city "Yo, why do you want these, you should be using our Metropolis line of trains, using these are a bad idea", and the city persisted that IT MUST BE LRT.
 
ARG1 said:
I don't think anyone is blaming Alstom, it was RTG and the city that chose the vehicles. Even Alstom at some point came in and asked the city "Yo, why do you want these, you should be using our Metropolis line of trains, using these are a bad idea", and the city persisted that IT MUST BE LRT.
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The derailment and these issues have nothing with the type of vehicle. It has to do with lack of experience and poor management. Lack of oversight.
 
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