Ottawa Transit Developments

[OCCheetos]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1061365923712524294

End of March opening?

 

[steveintoronto]

Not too many that even approach light metro out there.

San Diego Trolley ring a bell?

The entire Trolley network serves 53 stations, and comprises 53.5 miles (86.1 km) of route, and three primary lines named the Blue Line, the Orange Line, and the Green Line,[1] as well as a supplementary heritage streetcar downtown circulator known as the Silver Line that operates on select weekdays, weekends and holidays. In Q4 2014, the Trolley was the 5th most-ridden light rail system in the United States, with an average of 119,800 riders per weekday.[3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Diego_Trolley

8 stations are aerial, one underground:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Diego_State_University_Transit_Center

Then there's the LA system:

The Los Angeles Metro Rail is an urban rail transportation system serving Los Angeles County, California. It consists of six lines, including two rapid transit subway lines (the Red and Purple lines) and four light rail lines (the Blue, Green, Gold and Expo lines) serving 93 stations. It connects with the Metro Busway bus rapid transit system (the Orange Line and Silver Line) and also with the Metrolink commuter rail system.

Metro Rail, which had an average daily weekday ridership of 359,016 in 2017,[2] is owned and operated by the Los Angeles County Metropolitan Transportation Authority (Metro) and started service in 1990. It has been extended significantly since that time and several further extensions are either in the works or being considered.
[...]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles_Metro_Rail

And the Boston lines (greatest number of passengers carried in US)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_North_American_light_rail_systems_by_ridership

 

[Kyle Campbell]

San Diego Trolley ring a bell?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Diego_Trolley

8 stations are aerial, one underground:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Diego_State_University_Transit_Center

Then there's the LA system:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles_Metro_Rail

And the Boston lines (greatest number of passengers carried in US)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_North_American_light_rail_systems_by_ridership

If you were to go with degrees of separation (with one end being fully grade separated and the other street running), then at the high end you'd get something like this. I'm counting Honolulu and Vancouver here, even though they are sort of in a unique class since they are neither heavy rail like other Metro/Subways nor typical streetcar derived LRVs.

Edit: I think in Toronto especially people don't realize there's a whole spectrum between old fashioned on street streetcar and something like the Confed line where it's pretty much a full metro. Hence the endless LRT vs subway fights

Fully Grade Separated LRT/Automated People Movers (APM):
- Ottawa
- LA Green Line
- Vancouver (APM)
- Honolulu (APM)

Highly Grade Separated (very few at grade sections)
- Seattle
- Buffalo
- St Louis
- Boston Green Line D branch
- Crosstown

Highly Segregated (some grade separation, mostly dedicated off-road ROW)
- Calgary
- Edmonton
- San Diego
- Charlotte
- Dallas
- Salt Lake City
- Minneapolis Blue Line
- Newark
- NJ River Line (Camden)
- Sprinter (San Diego)
- Sacramento
- Denver
- Cleveland Blue and Green Lines
- Gold line LA

Mostly Segregated (some off road ROW, mostly on-road dedicated ROW, may have some mixed traffic running or full grade separation)
- Houston
- ION
- Phoenix
- San Jose
- TTC Spadina and St Clair Streetcars
- Hudson-Bergen
- Tacoma
- Pittsburgh
- San Francisco
- Portland
- Expo/Blue lines LA

 

[Kyle Campbell]

I also think that Ottawa and the LA green line will remain rare examples of full grade separation with LRVs. In LA, it runs down the median of an elevated freeway, so grade separation was "free", in the Ottawa case because it's a converted busway it necessitated an LRV as a vehicle choice. A TR train or even a Mark iii wouldn't have been able to use a geometry designed for buses at an acceptable speed. Ottawa only straightened one particularly sharp curve at Tremblay station, not because the Citadis couldn't make the curve but because it couldn't do it at 70 kmh.

Any new light metros would probably do what Honolulu did and go with an APM system instead

 

[steveintoronto]

Edit: I think in Toronto especially people don't realize there's a whole spectrum between old fashioned on street streetcar and something like the Confed line where it's pretty much a full metro. Hence the endless LRT vs subway fights

It depends on the sector of Torontonians. I think it's a mistake to make it a 'Toronto' case, when it's Ontario who elected Doug Ford after Toronto rejected him. Be scared, be very scared.

But on the continuing comparison, this article quote following is now over six years old, and the Gold Line LRT first extension is now added to LA, phase 2 of the extension is underway:

The first stage of the plan, Phase 2A, extended the Gold Line from Pasadena to Azusa, and opened on March 5, 2016. Phase 2B, which will extend the line a further six stations to the Montclair Transcenter, broke ground in December 2017.[1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_Line_Foothill_Extension

LRT Today: Los Angeles’s suburban light rail system
MARCH 1, 2012 | BY NOAH VAN DER LAAN
Spacing Magazine

Starting from scratch just over two decades ago, LA wound up with over 60 miles of track, 53 LRT stations, and 172 LRV train cars, in addition to 16 miles of subway – an over $6 billion investment.

To date, Los Angeles’s colourful light rail lines constitute the third busiest LRT system in the United States by ridership, with 160,464 average weekday boardings. LA County Metro’s Blue Line is the second largest light rail line by ridership in the United States with an average weekday ridership of 90,109.

As Spacing’s John Lorinc pointed out a few weeks ago, LA’s conversion to light rail offers a transit lesson for Toronto.
[...]
Los Angeles County’s Metro Rail LRT routes run in a mix of environments, including on city streets, segregated from neighbouring roads, and in the median of freeways. Whether at-grade street, at-grade ROW, elevated, and underground, all trains are governed by colour light signals.
[...]

http://spacing.ca/toronto/2012/03/01/lrt-today-los-angeless-suburban-light-rail-system/

The link for Lorinc's article mentioned in the above and live in that article is now changed to:
LORINC: How Los Angeles found religion on transit: A lesson for Toronto?
JANUARY 23, 2012 | BY JOHN LORINC
http://spacing.ca/toronto/2012/01/2...und-religion-on-transit-a-lesson-for-toronto/

I also think that Ottawa and the LA green line will remain rare examples of full grade separation with LRVs.

I don't see Ottawa as an exception as much as Toronto's streetcar system being the exception. That is changing with the LRTs under construction, a continuing debate...

Make no mistake, I envy Ottawa's LRT, but I think it's far from exceptional in the North Am context. For Toronto to emulate? Absolutely. And that brings us back to Doug Ford and the Troglodytes, a band out of tune, out of time and completely unfunky. Did I mention they can't play let alone dance?

 

[Kyle Campbell]

I don't see Ottawa as an exception as much as Toronto's streetcar system being the exception. That is changing with the LRTs under construction, a continuing debate...

All I meant is that it's rare to have complete grade separation, at that point the price to build negates the savings of LRT over full subway. LA just happened to have a freeway and Ottawa a freeway for buses. Very high order LRTs like say the crosstown are more common, and that line might convince the doubters once in operation.


Edit: There's a fair number of systems that have portions in freeway medians, but that strikes me as a bit of being cheap rather than smart about transit. The area around freeways are usually very pedestrian hostile, and such lines don't really do much for development.

 

[steveintoronto]

Edit: There's a fair number of systems that have portions in freeway medians, but that strikes me as a bit of being cheap rather than smart about transit. The area around freeways are usually very pedestrian hostile, and such lines don't really do much for development.

It's a valid point but to an invalid context. Much of the way LA is laid out, 'local transit' is a non-sequitur. The intent is to intercept those who'd drive the freeways to downtown or other communities rather than get them around locally. There are local buses in communities that wish them. LA is like a giant pomegranate. It has no singe seed pit (albeit I'm told that is changing). It's an amalgam of hundreds of pits. LA is a very strange experience. Oddly, that's not a California 'thing' per-se.
https://www.google.ca/search?q=walk...95j0j7&client=ubuntu&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Btw: LA average density is on par with Toronto's.

 

[Kyle Campbell]

[media]

OcTranspo just published this end to end video of the almost complete confederation line.

 

[44 North]

Wow, that's the real deal. Something about the price of the line too seems like a real "deal' as well. Two Billion for 12km and 13 stations. Obviously a lot was saved from using old transitway infrastructure, but still. Just comparing the cost of our former Line 3 conversion plan, feel like Ottawa got a steal.

Now can anyone tell me if Phase II is fully grade-separated as well? If so, wonder why they went with low-floor LRVs designed for street use. And LRVs to begin with for that matter - if it is to be fully grade-separate. Lots of subway/metro rolling stock options available that can do tight turns, or ones made to order. Either way good stuff and will like to ride next summer.

 

[Bureaucromancer]

Yes, phase II is also fully grade separated. My understanding is that the system is actually running fully automated as well (bear in mind that Innovia really still is the exception going unmanned, automatic operation or not). As far as why LRT given that... I suspect it came down to that being what was talked about and the consortium bidding not having any reason to argue the point. And really, why lose the flexibility LRV's provide if you're going to have crews on the trains and dont have capacity constraints?

 

[mdrejhon]

Coincidentally, I was visiting family in Ottawa so I photographed the big red O logo, which indicates an O-Train station.

- O-Train station at VIA Rail station
- O-Train station at St. Laurent shopping mall transit hub

The OC Transpo Presto vending machines are identical to the new Metrolinx vending machines at TTC stations, but with different brand wrap. And the LRT station faregates are the same as the new TTC faregates.

 

[Kyle Campbell]

Wow, that's the real deal. Something about the price of the line too seems like a real "deal' as well. Two Billion for 12km and 13 stations. Obviously a lot was saved from using old transitway infrastructure, but still. Just comparing the cost of our former Line 3 conversion plan, feel like Ottawa got a steal.

Now can anyone tell me if Phase II is fully grade-separated as well? If so, wonder why they went with low-floor LRVs designed for street use. And LRVs to begin with for that matter - if it is to be fully grade-separate. Either way good stuff and will like to ride next summer.

Phase II is also fully grade separated, but at the time the vehicles were selected the original thought was to go surface style out at the ends like the Crosstown. That idea has gone out the window now, so we essentially have a low-floor subway, especially since it's full ATO (though not fully automated).

Ignoring the low floor part, because it was a roadway before it was rail, LRVs were probably always going to be the choice. The geometry wouldn't be right for something that wasn't intended to run on roads.

 

[steveintoronto]

Now can anyone tell me if Phase II is fully grade-separated as well? If so, wonder why they went with low-floor LRVs designed for street use.

And LRVs to begin with for that matter - if it is to be fully grade-separate.

Lots of subway/metro rolling stock options available that can do tight turns, or ones made to order.

I was ready to offer a comment on each quote, but others have filled in a lot of the blanks. I watched that vid twice, and the same thought kept overwhelming me: *This is what the Relief Line could be!* But then I thought, "wait a minute, it will need longer platforms" until seeing how long the Ottawa ones are.

But then I thought: "OK, this is a system model that could intermingle both street running LRVs and low floor Metros," (it's 1500V DC catenary, the new standard for LRVs and an established one for Metros) the LRV's running off the 'mainline' onto major thoroughfares or less developed Rights of Way.

There's flexibility galore built into this system! Impressive...

 

[Kyle Campbell]

Wow, that's the real deal. Something about the price of the line too seems like a real "deal' as well. Two Billion for 12km and 13 stations. Obviously a lot was saved from using old transitway infrastructure, but still. Just comparing the cost of our former Line 3 conversion plan, feel like Ottawa got a steal.

Another thought is how the TTC build things. The O-Train stations are definitely spiffy, but they aren't nearly as grandiose as what Toronto built for the Spadina extension, especially the gargantuan 407 station. Another thing is the mined single tunnel was a cheaper method than twin bored tunnels that would likely be used for the SSE.

 

[steveintoronto]

The O-Train stations are definitely spiffy, but they aren't nearly as grandiose as what Toronto built for the Spadina extension, especially the gargantuan 407 station.

I'm reminded of the old saying: "All show and no go". I've yet to visit the latest extension, and have near zero interest in doing so, the pics are enough to turn me off. Frankly, some of them are just fugging awful. And yet the Spadina line still hosts one of the most inviting stations in Toronto, on par with anything in Montreal or London, and the limited number of stations I've seen in Paris: Designed by Hobbits methinks: Dupont Station. It's inviting and warm, all rounded edges. Almost organically alive.

Another thing is the mined single tunnel was a cheaper method than twin bored tunnels that would likely be used for the SSE.

That's an engineering issue down to many factors, and Ottawa actually got that wrong in some respects in some places.