Orangeville-Brampton Railway (OBRY)

[Mayor Creelman]

I thought I would make a thread dedicated to the Orangeville-Brampton Railway and the Credit Valley Explorer train service. With a chunk of the line running through the GTA, the OBRY as a rail corridor could become more and more important in the future.

Thank you for taking an interest..

The debate about this rail corridor is suffering for a variety of reasons and misinformation.

First, it is being portrayed as being abandoned by industrial users when it's no secret Orangeville has wanted to unload this asset for years. Second, the potential of this corridor is not being well explained. It will never be the equivalent of the Lakeshore line nor does it need to be rehabilitated to that standard.

All many of us are asking for is a test bed for single self propelled vehicles and certainly not the multiple double decker model that Metrolix/GO seems so married to.

What has killed this line are provincially mandated and set municipal taxes for rail corridors that don't exempt municipally owned rail lines. The tax rate through Peel is the same as through downtown Toronto. No wonder it has become unaffordable.

Lastly, and this really irks me, the suggestion there is no ridership for such a service. If that assumption is based on the experience of the current GO bus service I get it. That service is poorly integrates with other services and is little more than a 'milk run' between Orangeville and Brampton. Many of us are trying to change that however it's the old story of making a service so unattractive that an argument to abandon let alone expand becomes more persuasive than one to continue and improve.

 

[Bordercollie]

Thank you for taking an interest..

The debate about this rail corridor is suffering for a variety of reasons and misinformation.

First, it is being portrayed as being abandoned by industrial users when it's no secret Orangeville has wanted to unload this asset for years. Second, the potential of this corridor is not being well explained. It will never be the equivalent of the Lakeshore line nor does it need to be rehabilitated to that standard.

All many of us are asking for is a test bed for single self propelled vehicles and certainly not the multiple double decker model that Metrolix/GO seems so married to.

What has killed this line are provincially mandated and set municipal taxes for rail corridors that don't exempt municipally owned rail lines. The tax rate through Peel is the same as through downtown Toronto. No wonder it has become unaffordable.

Lastly, and this really irks me, the suggestion there is no ridership for such a service. If that assumption is based on the experience of the current GO bus service I get it. That service is poorly integrates with other services and is little more than a 'milk run' between Orangeville and Brampton. Many of us are trying to change that however it's the old story of making a service so unattractive that an argument to abandon let alone expand becomes more persuasive than one to continue and improve.

Basically the politicians are only looking at today's interests and not the long term ones.

This also goes with people at Metrolinx. But it's hard to sell when the local politicians are not on board to support your project.

 

[dowlingm]

If the OBRY trackage goes through discontinuance, is any kind of rationalization/downsizing likely at the Streetsville yard? Does CP have customers on the section as far as Meadowvale Station, like the spurs north of the 401 bridge?

 

[ShonTron]

If the OBRY trackage goes through discontinuance, is any kind of rationalization/downsizing likely at the Streetsville yard? Does CP have customers on the section as far as Meadowvale Station, like the spurs north of the 401 bridge?

Yes. There is one customer just north of the 401 still serviced by CP – Katoen Natie. They will continue to be serviced from Lambton Yard.

 

[SaugeenJunction]

Excellent video by Reece Martin about the OBRY:

 

[TOareaFan]

Second, the potential of this corridor is not being well explained. It will never be the equivalent of the Lakeshore line nor does it need to be rehabilitated to that standard.

All many of us are asking for is a test bed for single self propelled vehicles and certainly not the multiple double decker model that Metrolix/GO seems so married to.

What has killed this line are provincially mandated and set municipal taxes for rail corridors that don't exempt municipally owned rail lines. The tax rate through Peel is the same as through downtown Toronto. No wonder it has become unaffordable.

Lastly, and this really irks me, the suggestion there is no ridership for such a service. If that assumption is based on the experience of the current GO bus service I get it. That service is poorly integrates with other services and is little more than a 'milk run' between Orangeville and Brampton. Many of us are trying to change that however it's the old story of making a service so unattractive that an argument to abandon let alone expand becomes more persuasive than one to continue and improve.

Where would the riders come from though? We can mock buses and maybe the bus service needs improving but the buses, at least, run along the road closest to where the, relatively sparse, populations of people are (Main/Hurontarion/10)....this rail line does not....from the juncture with the Brampton station, it runs north through an inaccessible "gully" surrounded, on both sides, by backyard fences....up to about Bovaird....where it then goes through an industrial wasteland (which is becoming more industrialized as we speak). until about Sandalwood where the surrounding use kinda switches back to backyards (although some of the backyards are homes and some are plazas).....at Wanless, it returns to purely residential back yards again, right up to where Caledon starts (Mayfield) there we have a bit of an unknown as it is only backyards on one side and farms (for who knows how long) on the other side.....so I guess there is room there to build a station and hope for more transit friendly development but the road also veers a bit further west (away from 10) at continues north. By the time it gets to the airport, it is veering all the way over to Chinguacousy Rd (or whatever that is called up there)....from there it goes on this meandering route of curves and bends that makes me think that a train up there cannot be faster/more efficient than a well planned/run bus service directly down the highway/county road.

I get the desire to save useful rail corridors...but i think that is different than the desire to save "all corridors". You can come at me in a hundred years if I am wrong, but don't think people will be lamenting the loss of this curvy-wurvy single track piece of infrastructure then.

 

[kamira51]

Where would the riders come from though? We can mock buses and maybe the bus service needs improving but the buses, at least, run along the road closest to where the, relatively sparse, populations of people are (Main/Hurontarion/10)....this rail line does not....from the juncture with the Brampton station, it runs north through an inaccessible "gully" surrounded, on both sides, by backyard fences....up to about Bovaird....where it then goes through an industrial wasteland (which is becoming more industrialized as we speak). until about Sandalwood where the surrounding use kinda switches back to backyards (although some of the backyards are homes and some are plazas).....at Wanless, it returns to purely residential back yards again, right up to where Caledon starts (Mayfield) there we have a bit of an unknown as it is only backyards on one side and farms (for who knows how long) on the other side.....so I guess there is room there to build a station and hope for more transit friendly development but the road also veers a bit further west (away from 10) at continues north. By the time it gets to the airport, it is veering all the way over to Chinguacousy Rd (or whatever that is called up there)....from there it goes on this meandering route of curves and bends that makes me think that a train up there cannot be faster/more efficient than a well planned/run bus service directly down the highway/county road.

I get the desire to save useful rail corridors...but i think that is different than the desire to save "all corridors". You can come at me in a hundred years if I am wrong, but don't think people will be lamenting the loss of this curvy-wurvy single track piece of infrastructure then.

The current mentality that slapping a bus on a road somehow check marks the "installed rapid transit" box needs to stop. How about instead of relying on bus for long distance travel, we invest in new rapid railway corridors.

 

[lenaitch]

Interesting that employment lands are considered ""wastelands".

 

[TOareaFan]

The current mentality that slapping a bus on a road somehow check marks the "installed rapid transit" box needs to stop. How about instead of relying on bus for long distance travel, we invest in new rapid railway corridors.

All for that, where populations/density/land use warrant that higher order transit....none of that exists, or is likely to exist, within a reasonable catchment area of this line....it is tantilizingly close to where the people are/will be but not there. Your disdain for bus as transit is showing...no one said "slap a bus on the road"...but buses can be an effective long distance transit option...like rail options, each horse has its course.

 

[TOareaFan]

Interesting that employment lands are considered ""wastelands".

I will assume you know the layout on those industrial lands I referred to and, from the point of view of generating transit ridership...yes, the type and configuration of the industrial properties there (and coming soon) to the area I described as a wasteland makes the description completely accurate. They are large, warehouse/fulfillment/logistics type uses with, mostly, their backdoors facing the tracks....

...so l stand by the description as low employee per s.f. employment lands with hidden transit behind them will not generate a lot of ridership.

 

[kamira51]

All for that, where populations/density/land use warrant that higher order transit....none of that exists, or is likely to exist, within a reasonable catchment area of this line....it is tantilizingly close to where the people are/will be but not there. Your disdain for bus as transit is showing...no one said "slap a bus on the road"...but buses can be an effective long distance transit option...like rail options, each horse has its course.

That I understand, but I personally feel that we're putting all our eggs in one basket(busses) when we should be investing in other, faster transit solutions.

 

[lenaitch]

I will assume you know the layout on those industrial lands I referred to and, from the point of view of generating transit ridership...yes, the type and configuration of the industrial properties there (and coming soon) to the area I described as a wasteland makes the description completely accurate. They are large, warehouse/fulfillment/logistics type uses with, mostly, their backdoors facing the tracks....

...so l stand by the description as low employee per s.f. employment lands with hidden transit behind them will not generate a lot of ridership.

In that sense, fair point. I doubt many commercial/manufacturing/logistics facilities would have a high 'employee/sf ratio.

At least they are less likely to complain about noisy trains ruining their bbq or lowering their property values.

 

[smitty9999]

ORDC sells rail lands in downtown Brampton

www.orangeville.ca

 

[ShonTron]

ORDC sells rail lands in downtown Brampton

www.orangeville.ca

This isn’t new to those in the know, but it is good to know that the news is official, with the station grounds now dedicated to parkland.

 

[kamira51]

This isn’t new to those in the know, but it is good to know that the news is official, with the station grounds now dedicated to parkland.

Just gonna leave this here

'GTA West does not align with Orangeville’s priorities': Council opposes Highway 413 through Caledon, Vaughan, Milton

With many supporting the creation of the GTA West and 413 corridor, Orangeville council feels it will bring more harm and do nothing to alleviate traffic concerns. Following in the footsteps of...

www.orangeville.com