Orangeville-Brampton Railway (OBRY)

[afransen]

Here’s a thought - why not concrete in the rails just north of the diamond, and create an busway, but leaving the option for trains to run over it off hours? The OBRY is a low speed low frequency service.

I think that would cost an order of magnitude more than the $3M or so they were wanting to spend to get this up and running.

 

[2transpo]

These "ULRT" guys are textbook scam artists. They don't have a built prototype or anything.

In general, beyond self-serving nostalgic reasons, there isn't much reason to keep the OBRY around.

The communities that it serves would be better off without it around since it would serve as an active transport corridor, rather than a way to unfairly subsidize a few companies.

 

[north-of-anything]

Elon Musk is a scam artist, and yet billions of dollars are going into hyperloop research and development every year. $3 million - that isn't coming from taxpayers, by the way - is a drop in the bucket. Worst case scenario is we prove it doesn't work on a corridor that isn't being used for anything else, and we all move on with our lives.

 

[2transpo]

Elon Musk is a scam artist, and yet billions of dollars are going into hyperloop research and development every year. $3 million - that isn't coming from taxpayers, by the way - is a drop in the bucket. Worst case scenario is we prove it doesn't work on a corridor that isn't being used for anything else, and we all move on with our lives.

If you really want to see the type of people we're dealing with here, just look at their website. Their whole logic is that rail systems always have a high ridership so the way to get ridership up is by putting busses on rails. The whole point is that rail systems are deployed in high ridership areas. Putting a bus on rails doesn't magically give you high ridership.

What we do miss out on here is the fact that if this company is allowed to buy the line, it can't be redeveloped and Orangeville will be out of the $10 million they need to recover from lost investment into the shortline.

 

[north-of-anything]

If you really want to see the type of people we're dealing with here, just look at their website. Their whole logic is that rail systems always have a high ridership so the way to get ridership up is by putting busses on rails. The whole point is that rail systems are deployed in high ridership areas. Putting a bus on rails doesn't magically give you high ridership.

What we do miss out on here is the fact that if this company is allowed to buy the line, it can't be redeveloped and Orangeville will be out of the $10 million they need to recover from lost investment into the shortline.

Redeveloped into what, exactly? This isn't prime real estate across most of the corridor, and the few parts that could be developed would probably be broken off by Orangeville and sold separately. You don't need a huge layover yard for a dozen buses. I think Orangeville should get ready to sell or lease the line before property tax drags them down even further.

 

[lenaitch]

Redeveloped into what, exactly? This isn't prime real estate across most of the corridor, and the few parts that could be developed would probably be broken off by Orangeville and sold separately. You don't need a huge layover yard for a dozen buses. I think Orangeville should get ready to sell or lease the line before property tax drags them down even further.

Other than both ends, they can sell pieces to adjacent landowners or turn it into a trail (a real money-maker).

 

[TerryJohnson]

The only major "real estate" opportunity seems to be the old CP station site in Brampton, but to build on that land would sever the corridor for trail or future transit use, which is in the provincial long term plan, and because it is an old station site meeting today's environmental standards for a new housing development might cost most of what Orangeville thinks that parcel is worth.

Meanwhile, I've seen this play out before where I live in Chatham-Kent. No trains on the old PM/Chessie/CSX line, which our council bought but then didn't run, means lost industry and new industrial investment opportunities lost to other communities.

 

[2transpo]

The only major "real estate" opportunity seems to be the old CP station site in Brampton

If Orangeville believes that they can recoup a good amount of their lost money over the last 20 years from this plot of land, they are entitled to sell it.

but to build on that land would sever the corridor for trail or future transit use, which is in the provincial long term plan

It doesn't really matter if it is severed. The section of trail that matters is north of Brampton. Orangeville's vision is to have people take the GO train from Brampton and ride their bike to Orangeville. The section south of the Halton Sub doesn't really matter. Also, once the rails are removed, they are never coming back so we can put that to bed.

and because it is an old station site meeting today's environmental standards for a new housing development might cost most of what Orangeville thinks that parcel is worth.

I think they have done their homework on this one. IMO, people are making much more out of this than it really is.

Meanwhile, I've seen this play out before where I live in Chatham-Kent.

Somewhat different over there. They bought the line, there was no case for government-assisted operation so they sold it to a company that may use it in the future. If it is worth saving, a company will try to save it. Otherwise, let it go.

means lost industry and new industrial investment opportunities lost to other communities.

No it doesn't. The companies that use the railways are moving to trucks and it suits their needs. The whole thing about the OBRY was that it was just a way for the manufacturers to take advantage of the Orangeville taxpayer. They cried the blues about how they couldn't run without the railroad, but the town called their bluff and none of them are leaving. It isn't a big deal.

The reality is that if a company wants to use rail, they shouldn't be moving to Orangeville. There are plenty of other places that have rail, but Orangeville shouldn't be on the hook for corperate wellfare. A trail will serve the community much better than the railway ever did.

We also discussed this in the disruption thread, but autonomous trucks will likely eliminate the need for last-mile shortline railroads like the OBRY in the near future.

Bottom line, there isn't any case to retain the OBRY. IMO, those who want to save it are just nostalgics who aren't taking into account the needs and realities of Orangeville and other communities.

 

[afransen]

If Orangeville believes that they can recoup a good amount of their lost money over the last 20 years from this plot of land, they are entitled to sell it.

Let the province buy it and land bank it. To develop a potential future ROW is madness.

 

[ShonTron]

The only major "real estate" opportunity seems to be the old CP station site in Brampton, but to build on that land would sever the corridor for trail or future transit use, which is in the provincial long term plan, and because it is an old station site meeting today's environmental standards for a new housing development might cost most of what Orangeville thinks that parcel is worth.

Meanwhile, I've seen this play out before where I live in Chatham-Kent. No trains on the old PM/Chessie/CSX line, which our council bought but then didn't run, means lost industry and new industrial investment opportunities lost to other communities.

Other railway land might be valuable if the ROW is sold off to adjoining landowners and made into a larger land assembly, but that would eliminate any possibility of a trail or transit corridor.

The CP station area might have some contamination, it would be minor, given that it was a small station with only a few sidings, and with limited adjacent industrial activity - a dairy on the other side of Park Street was torn down and replaced with townhouses. Only the Peel Ice and Fuel depot on the north side of Nelson Street would likely be a problem.

There are plenty of smaller towns and cities where the railway was removed, with no trace remaining of the former use due to new housing built on top, including the CP Elora Sub in Fergus, and even the station grounds in Lindsay, which was once a CN divisional point.

 

[2transpo]

There is a new multimodal hub opening in Thorold.

Tora Inc Joins Thorold Multimodal Hub - MRO Magazine

St. Catharines-based Tora Inc. will now occupy 60,000 sq.ft of warehouse space within the recently-opened Thorold Multimodal Hub.

www.mromagazine.com

The point being, there are plenty of places in the province for the manufacturers in Orangeville to move if they really need rail. I don't think it is worth getting worked up over the loss of some less significant shortlines. Really, municipal ownership only delayed the inevitable, at significant cost to the citizens of Orangeville.

 

[robmausser]

Other railway land might be valuable if the ROW is sold off to adjoining landowners and made into a larger land assembly, but that would eliminate any possibility of a trail or transit corridor.

lets not make the same mistake we made by selling off the Northern railway through Scarborough to housing, which would have been the perfect ROW for a transit extension of the subway to STC and Malvern. Irks me to this day.

We should preserve rights of ways for any type of transportation, be it a rail line, LRT or bikeway.

 

[DirectionNorth]

There is a new multimodal hub opening in Thorold.

Tora Inc Joins Thorold Multimodal Hub - MRO Magazine

St. Catharines-based Tora Inc. will now occupy 60,000 sq.ft of warehouse space within the recently-opened Thorold Multimodal Hub.

www.mromagazine.com

The point being, there are plenty of places in the province for the manufacturers in Orangeville to move if they really need rail. I don't think it is worth getting worked up over the loss of some less significant shortlines. Really, municipal ownership only delayed the inevitable, at significant cost to the citizens of Orangeville.

Did you "forget" to note that manufacturers, even temporarily, produce jobs and pay property taxes in Orangeville?

 

[2transpo]

Did you "forget" to note that manufacturers, even temporarily, produce jobs and pay property taxes in Orangeville?

Not enough to justify the expense of the rail line to the town. Orangeville has plenty of opportunities and avenues for growth. They have good road access which is enough for most manufacturers, and the difference can be made up as a place to live for commuters.

It is actually a good thing to see Orangeville moving in this direction as it pulls the plug on some problematic corperate wellfare and allows the railway to be used as a community asset. The important thing is that if these manufacturers really need rail (they don't, it was just an excuse to receive handouts from the town for 20 years), they can still stay within the province which is the most important thing.

Also:

Transport Action: February News - Motorcoach operators battling pandemic crisis

Award for Atlantic region drivers, reprieve for NB bus services, campaign updates from Ontario and BC. Canada's motorcoach industry responding to Covid-19 crisis Hello , It's been a busy few weeks for

myemail.constantcontact.com

From OBRY section:

Due to continued uncertainty about the line’s future and recent changes in local businesses, there is not a good freight business case in the short term.

 

[DirectionNorth]

Not enough to justify the expense of the rail line to the town. Orangeville has plenty of opportunities and avenues for growth. They have good road access which is enough for most manufacturers, and the difference can be made up as a place to live for commuters.

It is actually a good thing to see Orangeville moving in this direction as it pulls the plug on some problematic corperate wellfare and allows the railway to be used as a community asset. The important thing is that if these manufacturers really need rail (they don't, it was just an excuse to receive handouts from the town for 20 years), they can still stay within the province which is the most important thing.

Also:

Transport Action: February News - Motorcoach operators battling pandemic crisis

Award for Atlantic region drivers, reprieve for NB bus services, campaign updates from Ontario and BC. Canada's motorcoach industry responding to Covid-19 crisis Hello , It's been a busy few weeks for

myemail.constantcontact.com

From my observations, you seem to be advocating for the ROW to be sold or converted into a trail, but here in Ottawa we're having the exact same debate. If you use the ROW for something else, it's gone forever. I think there is potential for a new transit line (GO, BRT, whatever) to be built there, at least south of King St. To sell the line, only to see a need for a corridor in that area a few decades later is very short sighted for Orangeville. The whole SRT debate would be null if the CN corridor, which runs almost exactly from Kennedy to Scarborough Center, wasn't sold for backyard extensions.

Due to continued uncertainty about the line’s future and recent changes in local businesses, there is not a good freight business case in the short term. However, due to rapid population growth in the area and lands designated for future industrial development, TAO believes there is continued rail potential in the medium term.

This is why I believe the corridor should not be sold. If anything, it should be straightened north of Brampton. A GO line makes it more attractive for commuters.