Ontario Northland/Northern Ontario Transportation

[rbt]

Honestly, the yearly subsidy amounts seem laughable. We spent $1.8B burying the Eglinton West Crosstown Extension, which (I think) would pay for ... 176 years (?!) of enhanced service to Cochrane?

Agreed. The business case for this isn't great but it's significantly better than a few other funded transit projects.

Worth noting, Ontario Northland already receives a ~$30M/year operations subsidy so this isn't a huge bump. The same additional subsidy pushed into their bus service would not add very many trips (presuming linear scaling).

 

[nfitz]

I can see why they might want to serve Timmins instead of Cochrane, given the populations.

But instead of a bus shuttle between Timmins and Cochrane, why not just extend the Polar Bear Express the 44 km to Porquis Junction, to meet the train from Toronto to Timmins? Or heck, another 33 further km to the existing station at Matheson.

I'm not sure why the first focus is North Bay to Toronto (other than politics), with much more needed service from North Bay to Timmins until the mid 2030s (like that will actually happen with many more elections to come). If North Bay service is so important, why not just pay VIA to reroute the Canadian through North Bay - it would only add a couple of hours to the service to Sudbury, and would provide better North Bay to Sudbury service than now (other than the Sudbury Junction issue).

 

[micheal_can]

I can see why they might want to serve Timmins instead of Cochrane, given the populations.

But instead of a bus shuttle between Timmins and Cochrane, why not just extend the Polar Bear Express the 44 km to Porquis Junction, to meet the train from Toronto to Timmins? Or heck, another 33 further km to the existing station at Matheson.

I'm not sure why the first focus is North Bay to Toronto (other than politics), with much more needed service from North Bay to Timmins until the mid 2030s (like that will actually happen with many more elections to come). If North Bay service is so important, why not just pay VIA to reroute the Canadian through North Bay - it would only add a couple of hours to the service to Sudbury, and would provide better North Bay to Sudbury service than now (other than the Sudbury Junction issue).

Do one better and have 2 platforms in Timmins that the 2 trains can meet up at.

 

[lenaitch]

I can see why they might want to serve Timmins instead of Cochrane, given the populations.

But instead of a bus shuttle between Timmins and Cochrane, why not just extend the Polar Bear Express the 44 km to Porquis Junction, to meet the train from Toronto to Timmins? Or heck, another 33 further km to the existing station at Matheson.

I'm not sure why the first focus is North Bay to Toronto (other than politics), with much more needed service from North Bay to Timmins until the mid 2030s (like that will actually happen with many more elections to come). If North Bay service is so important, why not just pay VIA to reroute the Canadian through North Bay - it would only add a couple of hours to the service to Sudbury, and would provide better North Bay to Sudbury service than now (other than the Sudbury Junction issue).

The PBX is a mixed train with flag service. I would imagine trying to coordinate two trains that wouldn't leave passengers stranded in a kiosk wouldn't be well received. As well, the chain cars for vehicles need off-loading facilities. Pulling the PBX all the way into Timmins (S. Porcupine) would really raise the infrastructure costs.

I would think the costs to upgrade the track and wayside facilities between North Bay and Sudbury would not be cheap, including no connecting track between CN and OVR. There is no longer a station in North Bay on that alignment.

 

[lenaitch]

I’m from one of them so yes. I have been to one of these towns. The point is to get the zoning and OP changed so far into the future a commuter service can develop. Brace ridge is centrally locates. Whereas Gravenhurst and North Bay could use higher density around it. If you can’t bring the train downtown, bring the downtown to the train.

I'm sorry, I just don't see urban-style densities/commuter services in these communities. I'm sure these municipalities can figure out what type of communities they want.

If it were up to me (and there are a thousand reasons why it shouldn't be), I would nuke the Washago stop. It's only 22 road km from Gravenhurst, and move it to either Brechin or Beaverton to better serve the east side of Lake Simcoe. I would also only have one York Region stop, probably Richmond Hill because of better connections. Not everything should be turned into a commuter service. No fatal either way. The train will be crawling through Washago anyway because of the turnout.

 

[micheal_can]

The PBX is a mixed train with flag service. I would imagine trying to coordinate two trains that wouldn't leave passengers stranded in a kiosk wouldn't be well received. As well, the chain cars for vehicles need off-loading facilities. Pulling the PBX all the way into Timmins (S. Porcupine) would really raise the infrastructure costs.

I would think the costs to upgrade the track and wayside facilities between North Bay and Sudbury would not be cheap, including no connecting track between CN and OVR. There is no longer a station in North Bay on that alignment.

You could have the cars getting attached at Cochrane. That would solve that part of the problem. You could also plan into the PBX that it has a few hours at Cochrane to unload. That would help keep a schedule south to Timmins.

As far as connecting to OVR to ONR/CN, look by the diesel shops in North Bay for the connection. Always been there. A station along the way to Sudbury may not exist, but wouldn't be ridiculously high.

 

[christine]

I would also only have one York Region stop, probably Richmond Hill because of better connections. Not everything should be turned into a commuter service.

I agree two stops in York Region seems a bit much but it looks like they're selling those stops as having different purposes. Gormley provides ample parking and Langstaff offers connections - they seem to focus on Pearson with the 407 GO Bus but it's also a good connection to other GTA communities. Also, I know it's at least a decade away but there's the North Yonge subway extension which is expected to have a stop at Langstaff.

 

[Garuda]

I'm sorry, I just don't see urban-style densities/commuter services in these communities. I'm sure these municipalities can figure out what type of communities they want.

If it were up to me (and there are a thousand reasons why it shouldn't be), I would nuke the Washago stop. It's only 22 road km from Gravenhurst, and move it to either Brechin or Beaverton to better serve the east side of Lake Simcoe. I would also only have one York Region stop, probably Richmond Hill because of better connections. Not everything should be turned into a commuter service. TNo fatal either way. The train will be crawling through Washago anyway because of the turnout.

The point of changing the OP and Zoning si to make it easier for developers to build something nearby. They don’t have to apply for a zone change; just build. Just because it’s changed doesn’t mean that new dense buildings will be going up right away. That could be 20~ years down the line. It just marks where applications would be accepted.

I very much could see a commuter service between Huntsville, Bracebridge, and Gravenhurst and down to Toronto and Orilla. If there is a bus connection to Barrie the service will be popular with students.

also keep in mine that the train doesn’t always stop at these stations. When I took the north lander before shutting down the train would only stop if it knew someone was getting off or saw someone in the platform. Most days the train would roll through.

 

[Bordercollie]

The point of changing the OP and Zoning si to make it easier for developers to build something nearby. They don’t have to apply for a zone change; just build. Just because it’s changed doesn’t mean that new dense buildings will be going up right away. That could be 20~ years down the line. It just marks where applications would be accepted.

I very much could see a commuter service between Huntsville, Bracebridge, and Gravenhurst and down to Toronto and Orilla. If there is a bus connection to Barrie the service will be popular with students.

also keep in mine that the train doesn’t always stop at these stations. When I took the north lander before shutting down the train would only stop if it knew someone was getting off or saw someone in the platform. Most days the train would roll through.

Also take into consideration that it didnt run at the most convenient times.

 

[lenaitch]

You could have the cars getting attached at Cochrane. That would solve that part of the problem. You could also plan into the PBX that it has a few hours at Cochrane to unload. That would help keep a schedule south to Timmins.

As far as connecting to OVR to ONR/CN, look by the diesel shops in North Bay for the connection. Always been there. A station along the way to Sudbury may not exist, but wouldn't be ridiculously high.

Having the train sit in Cochrane for a few hours to solve a connection which is about an hour by road doesn't seem to solve much and not very passenger friendly. Having the PBX terminate in Timmins with its current consist would necessitate two reverse moves back out to Porquis Jct. and back (I don't know if any ONR freight locos are rigged for distributed power) . Let's take a proposal that some are already questioning its financial viability and make it even more costly.

I'm guessing that any routine servicing will be done at Willowbrook. ONR does most of its fleet servicing at Cochrane - NB is for contract refurbishment and, I think wheel turning and major locomotive servicing.

As for the connection, I meant in Sudbury. There is no connection between the OVR and CN Bala; just a diamond.

 

[lenaitch]

The point of changing the OP and Zoning si to make it easier for developers to build something nearby. They don’t have to apply for a zone change; just build. Just because it’s changed doesn’t mean that new dense buildings will be going up right away. That could be 20~ years down the line. It just marks where applications would be accepted.

I very much could see a commuter service between Huntsville, Bracebridge, and Gravenhurst and down to Toronto and Orilla. If there is a bus connection to Barrie the service will be popular with students.

also keep in mine that the train doesn’t always stop at these stations. When I took the north lander before shutting down the train would only stop if it knew someone was getting off or saw someone in the platform. Most days the train would roll through.

Ya, sorry if I came off kinda snippy. All of the Muskoka towns have official plans, but I still don't see commuter-level planning is warranted. The biggest challenge to these areas is non-seasonal employment; turning them into bedroom towns isn't the answer. I simply don't see people 'commuting' from Muskoka to the GTA, nor is the proposed service intended to service it (setting aside the fact that it doesn't go through Orillia or Barrie).

 

[micheal_can]

I agree two stops in York Region seems a bit much but it looks like they're selling those stops as having different purposes. Gormley provides ample parking and Langstaff offers connections - they seem to focus on Pearson with the 407 GO Bus but it's also a good connection to other GTA communities. Also, I know it's at least a decade away but there's the North Yonge subway extension which is expected to have a stop at Langstaff.

It confused my as to why the next stop after Union was Washago. Adding those 2 stops makes sense. One is connected to various RT(and eventually a subway) while the other is close to thee 404.

Having the train sit in Cochrane for a few hours to solve a connection which is about an hour by road doesn't seem to solve much and not very passenger friendly. Having the PBX terminate in Timmins with its current consist would necessitate two reverse moves back out to Porquis Jct. and back (I don't know if any ONR freight locos are rigged for distributed power) . Let's take a proposal that some are already questioning its financial viability and make it even more costly.

I'm guessing that any routine servicing will be done at Willowbrook. ONR does most of its fleet servicing at Cochrane - NB is for contract refurbishment and, I think wheel turning and major locomotive servicing.

As for the connection, I meant in Sudbury. There is no connection between the OVR and CN Bala; just a diamond.

I see the problem with the PBX.

As far as the diamond.... they could put a connection in. There is space. However, there is no need to if you are going to the downtown station. OVR used to be the CP line, and the downtown station is on the CP line.

 

[Allandale25]

Some political analysis here.

Could a new rail line help the Tories in northern Ontario? | TVO.org

OPINION: Train service to the north won’t pay for itself. But the government doesn’t seem scared of large sticker prices when it comes to transportation.

www.tvo.org

 

[lenaitch]

It confused my as to why the next stop after Union was Washago. Adding those 2 stops makes sense. One is connected to various RT(and eventually a subway) while the other is close to thee 404.


I see the problem with the PBX.

As far as the diamond.... they could put a connection in. There is space. However, there is no need to if you are going to the downtown station. OVR used to be the CP line, and the downtown station is on the CP line.

Fair point about the connecting track - provided somebody is willing to pay for it. As for the downtown VIA station, it is my understanding that is only for the Sudbury-White River train. In the context of the post (off topic I admit) that suggested the Canadian re-route via North Bay, as far as know the Canadian stop is Sudbury Junction.

 

[micheal_can]

Some political analysis here.

Could a new rail line help the Tories in northern Ontario? | TVO.org

OPINION: Train service to the north won’t pay for itself. But the government doesn’t seem scared of large sticker prices when it comes to transportation.

www.tvo.org

Short answer, it will secure the existing seats. They might be able to turn Timmins blue as it was close last election. The Nipissing riding was also close for Fideli, so he may need this to win next election.