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Ontario Northland/Northern Ontario Transportation

lenaitch said:
Yup. The north can be dodgey for alternatives. Weather can be a big factor but a lot of collisions can do the same. Both 17 and 11 have been closed due to weather several times this winter, as well as a lot of the cross-linking routes such as 101 through Chapleau and 631 through Hornpayne.
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If Toronto had an intermodal port they could use containers to move goods from Toronto to the north.
 
Allandale25 said:
^ I wonder if containers were ever moved in and out of any of the locations in the Port Lands that had rail access? @smallspy @crs1026
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The Port of Toronto still has container loading/unloading capability and its web site indicates that in 2020 it transloaded about 350 containers.

I am not aware if any of those arrived orleft by rail….. I doubt that many if any did….. more likely by truck

I’m quite sure there was never full-trainload container traffic, but perhaps a carload or two turned up once or twice.

- Paul
 
lenaitch said:
Yup. The north can be dodgey for alternatives. Weather can be a big factor but a lot of collisions can do the same. Both 17 and 11 have been closed due to weather several times this winter, as well as a lot of the cross-linking routes such as 101 through Chapleau and 631 through Hornpayne.
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You are forgetting 144.That gets closed too often as well.
 
Bordercollie said:
If Toronto had an intermodal port they could use containers to move goods from Toronto to the north.
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crs1026 said:
The Port of Toronto still has container loading/unloading capability and its web site indicates that in 2020 it transloaded about 350 containers.
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I'm surprised it was even that many.

Great Lakes container shipping is minimal and limited to domestic/trans-border, simply by virtue of the fact that most blue water container ships can't get past Montreal.

micheal_can said:
You are forgetting 144.That gets closed too often as well.
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True, although it seems moreso for collisions rather than weather. I've been watching (but not counting) and I'll bet Hwys 11 and 17 have been closed around a dozen times this winter for weather, sometimes at the same time, which precludes any domestic detour routing.
 
lenaitch said:
I'm surprised it was even that many.

Great Lakes container shipping is minimal and limited to domestic/trans-border, simply by virtue of the fact that most blue water container ships can't get past Montreal.
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Well, where are those containers coming from China being unloaded in the GTA? AFAIK both the CP and CN main yards in the GTA have unloading/loading facilities.

lenaitch said:
True, although it seems moreso for collisions rather than weather. I've been watching (but not counting) and I'll bet Hwys 11 and 17 have been closed around a dozen times this winter for weather, sometimes at the same time, which precludes any domestic detour routing.
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Most road closures are not for actual bad weather, but the accidents caused by bad weather.
 
micheal_can said:
Most road closures are not for actual bad weather, but the accidents caused by bad weather.
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Gotta argue with you there, bud, at least as it relates to northern Ontario, as well as western Ontario areas such as Grey, Bruce and Huron and Perth counties. Highway are typically closed preemptively. The primary driver is visibility. I don't know what the practice is now but when I worked up there, when the MTO pulled its trucks because they simply can't see, the signs went up. It is mostly caused by blowing snow but there were a couple of spots along Superior where simply 'precipitation-per-hour' could do it.

micheal_can said:
Well, where are those containers coming from China being unloaded in the GTA? AFAIK both the CP and CN main yards in the GTA have unloading/loading facilities.
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My comment was in relation to the Port of Toronto comment above it. Overseas containers arriving in Ontario are mostly coming from either coast via rail.
 
lenaitch said:
My comment was in relation to the Port of Toronto comment above it. Overseas containers arriving in Ontario are mostly coming from either coast via rail.
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Here is an article on the topic. Montreal is an active hub for marine container distribution with ships hauling to local ports on the east coast, presumably because it has the optimal combination of speedy rail transport to bypass the Seaway and maximum length of the marine segment to lower cost. And a suitable terminal infrastructure….. I suspect there is an economy of scale threshold that a port needs before it can become a hub, and Toronto just ain’t there.

- Paul
 
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lenaitch said:
Gotta argue with you there, bud, at least as it relates to northern Ontario, as well as western Ontario areas such as Grey, Bruce and Huron and Perth counties. Highway are typically closed preemptively. The primary driver is visibility. I don't know what the practice is now but when I worked up there, when the MTO pulled its trucks because they simply can't see, the signs went up. It is mostly caused by blowing snow but there were a couple of spots along Superior where simply 'precipitation-per-hour' could do it.
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11 and 144 usually gets closed due to accidents. Also, it seems the only reason 17 gets closed is due to accidents.

lenaitch said:
My comment was in relation to the Port of Toronto comment above it. Overseas containers arriving in Ontario are mostly coming from either coast via rail.
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You meant Marine traffic?
I thought you meant container traffic overall.
 
micheal_can said:
11 and 144 usually gets closed due to accidents. Also, it seems the only reason 17 gets closed is due to accidents.
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You need to follow Ontario 511 or northern news more. Best I can review Hwy 17 north of The Soo was closed six times in the past week alone, once for a collision. From my time up there that is not atypical during the winter. Hwy 11 from Geraldton/Longlac to Hearst, while not as frequent, has been closed several times this winter for weather. If you are just looking at northeastern Ontario in the Sudbury/North Bay Timmins area, then you are probably right

micheal_can said:
You meant Marine traffic?
I thought you meant container traffic overall.
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The whole discussion about containers started with a post about the new ONR container yard then expanded into comments about the Port of Toronto. The vast majority of international container traffic arrives in the GTA and Ontario as a whole, via rail.
 
crs1026 said:
I’m quite sure there was never full-trainload container traffic, but perhaps a carload or two turned up once or twice.

- Paul
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CP at one point in the late 1980s scheduled a container service from the Port (I don't know where from, admittedly), but it did not last long at all. Service was provided on 89-foot flats, rather than with well cars.

crs1026 said:
Here is an article on the topic. Montreal is an active hub for marine container distribution with ships hauling to local ports on the east coast, presumably because it has the optimal combination of speedy rail transport to bypass the Seaway and maximum length of the marine segment to lower cost. And a suitable terminal infrastructure….. I suspect there is an economy of scale threshold that a port needs before it can become a hub, and Toronto just ain’t there.

- Paul
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Another reason why Montreal rates better - it's a deepwater port with virtually no vessel limitations. (Yes, there are some draft limitations, but no others.) Vessels proceeding to Toronto however have to deal with the size constraints of the St Lawrence Seaway.

In any case, there are lots of places in Toronto where containers can be loaded, it doesn't just have to be the port.

Dan
 
lenaitch said:
You need to follow Ontario 511 or northern news more. Best I can review Hwy 17 north of The Soo was closed six times in the past week alone, once for a collision. From my time up there that is not atypical during the winter. Hwy 11 from Geraldton/Longlac to Hearst, while not as frequent, has been closed several times this winter for weather. If you are just looking at northeastern Ontario in the Sudbury/North Bay Timmins area, then you are probably right
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Sorry for the confusion. I mean 17 between the Ottawa Valley and the Soo. North of the Soo, you are right, it is mainly bad weather.
Also, I mean south of Timmins for 11.

lenaitch said:
The whole discussion about containers started with a post about the new ONR container yard then expanded into comments about the Port of Toronto. The vast majority of international container traffic arrives in the GTA and Ontario as a whole, via rail.
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I thought the intermodal yards such as the Macmillan Yard for CN were part of the Port of Toronto.
 
micheal_can said:
Sorry for the confusion. I mean 17 between the Ottawa Valley and the Soo. North of the Soo, you are right, it is mainly bad weather.
Also, I mean south of Timmins for 11.


I thought the intermodal yards such as the Macmillan Yard for CN were part of the Port of Toronto.
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There is space at Agincourt to build an intermodal terminal. Where would they be exchanging cars?
 
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