Ontario Line Extension West of Ontario Place (Speculation)

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Well the reason why York Region is getting so many subway extensions is because the region wants it. The reason why Mississauga never got a western extension of Line 2 despite it being proposed, is because they didn't want it.

From what I understand of Mississauga, even though Hazel is long gone, a lot of her policies and her cult like status isn't. As such, a lot of her principles like "Mississauga First" and "The Mississauga Identity" are alive and well.

People can appreciate hazel for what she did but at at the same time not agree with every decision she made or every stance she has.

Nothing about York region screams that they have given up or want to be second fiddle. You can want to be Mississauga first and at the same time recognize to be first you shouldn’t be the last 905 area to get a subway. By connecting to the network you help others get to Mississauga. See how that sounds Mississauga first.

Again Bonnie is in charge. And if anything we know that the mayor in Mississauga has a lot of pull. What is her position on this.

As far as I know (I don't live there so I can't say anything with 100% certainty) is that Bonnie is sort of Hazel 2.0 and is continuing a lot of her policies. That's kind of the point I was trying to make, that even though Hazel is technically gone, her spirit is still alive and well.

Well even the conservatives are for subways subways subways since they realized it spurs developers, side deals, gives good ribbon cutting photo ops and increases tax bases. Bonnie would have to be the only person in the room to be anti subway at this point.

It's been a while @sixrings , hope everything is well.

You're both right, Missisauga didn't want the subway, at city council didn't. But we do need to connect Square One to Downtown, and York Region has begun to overtake Peel as the number two in the area and it's ridiculous. There probably would be a lot less opposition to a Bloor Danforth extension west (lets be honest, back when the Spadina Subway was proposed there was nothing there) But the Crombie has to want it. Question is, what will residents say if she rejects it in the future.

Well even the conservatives are for subways subways subways since they realized it spurs developers, side deals, gives good ribbon cutting photo ops and increases tax bases. Bonnie would have to be the only person in the room to be anti subway at this point.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I agree with @afransen that this should be in the west thread, but just quickly. I see the argument for all the corridors, far west, Dundas/Roncescalles/Weston, and Dufferin. Why not go along the rail corridor for the OL and Build a new subway line on Dufferin? It could go from Eglinton to Lakeshore, connecting as a transfer point to the OL. Why not extend the WWLRT via the Queensway to Port Credit? Lots of ways to solve multiple issues here.

From the other thread

Or how about an intermediate capacity elevated automated metro system for the waterfront? Essentially a Toronto version of the London DLR.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I agree with @afransen that this should be in the west thread, but just quickly. I see the argument for all the corridors, far west, Dundas/Roncescalles/Weston, and Dufferin. Why not go along the rail corridor for the OL and Build a new subway line on Dufferin? It could go from Eglinton to Lakeshore, connecting as a transfer point to the OL. Why not extend the WWLRT via the Queensway to Port Credit? Lots of ways to solve multiple issues here.

From the other thread

This is a tricky decision, because Dufferin and the western waterfront are both underserved by transit, and the Ontario Line running through either corridor would be tremendously well used. We have a lot of good options here.

Why not go along the rail corridor for the OL and Build a new subway line on Dufferin?

The issue with this is that the Dufferin Line would be extremely well used. Conservatively, this line would be dumping 15,000 passengers at peak hour into its Exhibition Station terminus. In a high growth scenario, that could be 20,000+ passengers.

RER and boardings from Liberty Village would have another 8,000 people walking through Exhibition Station at peak.

There would also be several thousand westbound peak hour Ontario Line alightments at Exhibition at peak hour.

I don't view this as operationally viable. This would be another Bloor-Yonge mess in the making. We could realistically have 30,000+ people swamping Exhibition Station at peak hour (counting both boardings and alightments).

So the Ontario Line has to go up Dufferin. That way the thousands of commuters on the Dufferin subway could continue their journey into the core of the city, without adding crowding to Exhibtion Station.

To serve the western waterfront, LRT is an option. I would also like to see an elevated light metro system investigated, because it might not carry too much of a price premium over LRT.

 

[robmausser]

Why not go along the rail corridor for the OL and Build a new subway line on Dufferin?

I don't know what everyones obsession about bringing the OL along the rail corridor. We are getting electric trains every 6-15 minutes on the rail corridor, a subway line would be completely redundant.

 

[W. K. Lis]

I don't know what everyones obsession about bringing the OL along the rail corridor. We are getting electric trains every 6-15 minutes on the rail corridor, a subway line would be completely redundant.

There were several railway stations that could return as GO/UPX stations. Starting with the Sunnyside Station, at King-Queen-Roncesvlles-Queensway intersection. See link.

 

[sixrings]

I don't know what everyones obsession about bringing the OL along the rail corridor. We are getting electric trains every 6-15 minutes on the rail corridor, a subway line would be completely redundant.

I think you are referring to the rail corridor near Caledonia which I agree if the rail corridor can create 6-15 minute frequencies then perhaps we can push dufferin down the road. But the Milton line has no hope of these frequencies which is where the frustration comes from in the west. 15 minute frequencies from cooksville would be heaven for a lot of Mississauga

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Or how about an intermediate capacity elevated automated metro system for the waterfront? Essentially a Toronto version of the London DLR.

I would support this. That way we would be able to move people around without calling it an LRT lol. Same rolling stock as the OL.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I think you are referring to the rail corridor near Caledonia which I agree if the rail corridor can create 6-15 minute frequencies then perhaps we can push dufferin down the road. But the Milton line has no hope of these frequencies which is where the frustration comes from in the west. 15 minute frequencies from cooksville would be heaven for a lot of Mississauga

Kitchener Corridor

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Or how about an intermediate capacity elevated automated metro system for the waterfront? Essentially a Toronto version of the London DLR.

I would support this. That way we would be able to move people around without calling it an LRT lol. Same rolling stock as the OL.

I wish the city would quit dicking around with these waterfront LRT systems. They don't work well.

Build largely elevated system, start it somewhere around Mimico. Make sure it hits Exhbition, Queen's Quay, Union, East Harbour and then the new Portlands development.

Same rolling stock as OL, I completely agree.

The whole system might not even cost $5 Billion (I'm guesstimating based on the OL's cost)

The major issue is that the service provided by this might be too effective and generate too much ridership. Even the rather slow streetcars are projected to dump 10,000+ passengers at peak hour into Union Station. An effective automated metro may double that. We'd see similar capacity bottlenecks at Exhibiton and East Harbour, both of whom are primed to funnel several very well used services into the Ontario Line. We'd have to find a way to deal with that. This is a good problem to have though.

 

[crs1026]

The issue for me is how to integrate the existing semi-LRT on the Queensway (which, by the way, we have only just been renewing) with westward higher order transit.
I wonder if the solution is to bring the existing streetcar east to Exhibition in an underground tunnel from a portal around Sunnysde (where the ground slopes up, as visible in @drum118 's latest shot), and over to Exhibition to meet the OL. No real difference in travel time, plenty of capacity. The routings could branch out at the new Park Lawn loop, one going on the Queensway and the other going along Lakeshore as at present. If it ran under Queen, it would replace or augment surface street car - which would be welcome as the road is very constricted, could lead to a better bike/car layout. And it could lead to some constructive improvement in transit priority traffic signalling.
The other option would be to construct a new LRT south of the Queensway closer to the lake.
As noted, it's awfully redundant to have a subway parallelling both the GO line and the existing streetcar between Park Lawn and Dufferin

- Paul

 

[afransen]

Will Line 5 relieve the Dufferin bus?

A Dufferin extension would likely have to be tunneled and thus very expensive.

 

[MrGoose]

I wish the city would quit dicking around with these waterfront LRT systems. They don't work well.

Build largely elevated system, start it somewhere around Mimico. Make sure it hits Exhbition, Queen's Quay, Union, East Harbour and then the new Portlands development.

Same rolling stock as OL, I completely agree.

Only issue is that the service provided by this might be too effective and generate too much ridership. Even the rather slow streetcars are projected to dump 10,000+ passengers at peak hour into Union Station. An effective automated metro may double that. We'd see similar capacity bottlenecks at Exhibiton and East Harbour. We'd have to find a way to deal with that.

Just stop catering to cars.

Give the 501 every streetcar transit priority and keep cars out of the streetcar lanes. No more street parking on any streetcar route. You've instantly improved the reliability and speed of every route. Instantly create 5 LRT routes into downtown.

No need for branch routes of the OL when the 501 is handling 15k pphpd on the Queensway and Lakeshore.

 

[kamira51]

In the case of Mississauga, honestly any subway extension there is up to them. IIRC it was Hazel that denied any service expansion of the TTC into Mississauga because "Mississauga is its own city with its unique identity that don't need no subway from Toronto"

Haha that's crazy, source for this?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Will Line 5 relieve the Dufferin bus?

A Dufferin extension would likely have to be tunneled and thus very expensive.

It would relieve the northern parts (north of Eglinton), but it wouldn't do anything for the 29 Dufferin south of Eglinton in the AM rush hour.

The Dufferin extension would be very expensive, but also worth every penny. This would be amongst the most well used segments of subway we've ever built, and would transform land use in the area. If anywhere in Toronto "deserves" a subway, it's Dufferin.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Just stop catering to cars.

Give the 501 every streetcar transit priority and keep cars out of the streetcar lanes. No more street parking on any streetcar route. You've instantly improved the reliability and speed of every route. Instantly create 5 LRT routes into downtown.

No need for branch routes of the OL when the 501 is handling 15k pphpd on the Queensway and Lakeshore.

Yup, that could work.

Transit signal priority is tricky though. We'd have to put a lot of faith in the powers that be to get this right, and to not implement policies that would degrade service quality).

We'd also have to resist the urge to put stops every 300 metres.