Ontario Line Extension West of Ontario Place (Speculation)

[nfitz]

It is nonsensical to me why nobody has decided to modify the Milton line to RER, especially within Toronto. Kipling to Union should be all day service with high frequency, the amount of time saved for people who could avoid the hour long trip via subway here.

But they have.

Perhaps the question should be why the media aren't talking about this more, and asking Metrolinx and the provincial government if they are turning down the cash.

GO train plan that will help tens of thousands of Mississauga and Milton residents a priority, says transport minister | inSauga

A plan to expand the Milton GO train line that would benefit tens of thousands of Mississauga residents and workers is near the top of the priority list for Mississauga Centre MP and federal Minister of Transport Omar Alghabra, who retained his post in Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s latest...

www.insauga.com

 

[Deadpool X]

It's hard to believe that connectivity to Toronto's main western suburb remains supported by BRT and commuter rail only, while its eastern equivalent (Scarborough) has Line 2 extensions, line 5 extensions, Stouffville and more. This is off-topic however and is better suited to a different thread.

Mississauga's eastern equivalent is Pickering/Ajax. Scarborough is within city of Toronto (hence easier to add TTC services) and it's western equivalent is Etobicoke. In terms of distance, Mississauga isn't much further from downtown compared to Scarborough but municipal boundaries play a big role.

 

[gweed123]

I think Milton GO is not completely off-topic for OL westward extension as they would tend to overlap.

I wonder if, we can't come to some accommodation with CP, would it make sense the replace Milton GO with more of a light metro approach, in the CP ROW. Looking at the ROW, much of it has room for additional tracks. I can see there are concerns in places about access for CP to both sides of the ROW. Would it make sense then just to elevate the guideway where required by CP, or where the ROW is too narrow for 2 additional tracks.

This is exactly why using OL technology for that makes sense. It's 'light' enough to operate in a variety of different environments, but 'heavy' enough to handle the demand. I still maintain that the Milton Line would be far, far busier than it is today if it had better service levels. The demand is just being shifted down to Lakeshore or up to the Kitchener Line because that's where the service is.

Would it make sense for the Milton line to be replaced by OL West extension? Only problem then is that Milton Line would not go to Union, and would funnel passengers into Exhibition, etc. Making connectivity to the rest of the GO network a bit iffy. It would also need to go all the way to Milton to ensure Milton doesn't lose service. Obviously that line would not warrant the same kind of frequency seen on the core of the OL, so a branch up to the airport/Union West along the 427 via Kipling could make sense. Milton to Toronto is a bit of a long haul on more subway-type rolling stock for passenger comfort. The advantage of using OL rolling stock is that the Milton Line can actually have a station at Mississauga Centre. Cooksville should be retained but a tunnel or elevated alignment up Confederation Parkway, along Burnhamthorpe to Erindale GO and back in the CP ROW thereafter.

My preference would be to build a new rail line within the 407 corridor, specifically relevant for connecting Lisgar to the Kitchener Line just east of Bramalea. That would allow Milton and northern Mississauga to still have proper GO service, since they're beyond the range of what would be a reasonable Metro trip. Even riders from places like Meadowvale and Streetsville would have the option of going counter-peak up to Lisgar, and transferring to the (new) Milton Line there for a direct downtown-bound trip.

 

[allengeorge]

I still maintain that the Milton Line would be far, far busier than it is today if it had better service levels. The demand is just being shifted down to Lakeshore or up to the Kitchener Line because that's where the service is.

Anecdotally, I have family who have done exactly this: using the more frequent Lakeshore line as opposed to the Milton line. Although there’s additional driving time, it increases flexibility.

 

[sixrings]

Mississauga's eastern equivalent is Pickering/Ajax. Scarborough is within city of Toronto (hence easier to add TTC services) and it's western equivalent is Etobicoke. In terms of distance, Mississauga isn't much further from downtown compared to Scarborough but municipal boundaries play a big role.

Pickering is actually 14km further than square one or more than 50% longer.

Square one is far more comparable to Vaughan only .9km longer. Somehow municipal boundaries were not a factor there or in further Richmond Hill.

STC to downtown 21.1km
VMC to downtown 23.4km
Richmond Hill to downtown 22km
MCC to downtown 24.3km
Pickering to downtown is 38.4km

As noted below... Even if you were just to extend the lines from Kipling to square one (11km) or Scarborough town centre to Pickering (16.9)then Pickering is again going to lose and STC is considerably further from yonge and bloor (19.3km) than Kipling is (13.1km)
Pickering to downtown 38.4km

Even if you were just to extend the lines from Kipling to square one (11km) or Scarborough town centre to Pickering (16.9)then Pickering is again going to lose and STC is considerably further from yonge and bloor (19.3km) than Kipling is (13.1km)

 

[ARG1]

Pickering is actually 14km further than square one or more than 50% longer.

Square one is far more comparable to Vaughan only .9km longer. Somehow municipal boundaries were not a factor there or in further Richmond Hill.

STC to downtown 21.1km
VMC to downtown 23.4km
Richmond Hill to downtown 26.9
MCC to downtown 24.3km

As noted below... Even if you were just to extend the lines from Kipling to square one (11km) or Scarborough town centre to Pickering (16.9)then Pickering is again going to lose and STC is considerably further from yonge and bloor (19.3km) than Kipling is (13.1km)
Pickering to downtown 38.4kmView attachment 395134View attachment 395135View attachment 395136View attachment 395137View attachment 395138
Even if you were just to extend the lines from Kipling to square one (11km) or Scarborough town centre to Pickering (16.9)then Pickering is again going to lose and STC is considerably further from yonge and bloor (19.3km) than Kipling is (13.1km)



View attachment 395154View attachment 395163View attachment 395155View attachment 395164

I find it weird that for Richmond Hill you're using the distance from Toronto to the Richmond Hill Heritage Area, rather than what will actually be the main downtown, Richmond Hill Centre. Its like comparing Union to Streetsville or Union to Downtown Maple.

 

[sixrings]

I find it weird that for Richmond Hill you're using the distance from Toronto to the Richmond Hill Heritage Area, rather than what will actually be the main downtown, Richmond Hill Centre. Its like comparing Union to Streetsville or Union to Downtown Maple.

I stand corrected. You are right. It is 22km to 407 and Yonge. MCC would be 2.3 longer than that route. But Pickering at best would be 16.4 additional kms.

I edited my post to be more accurate. But the main point of my post was to show that MCC was considerably closer to union than Pickering was and that municipal boundaries didn’t stop other subway projects.

 

[ARG1]

I stand corrected. You are right. It is 22km to 407 and Yonge. MCC would be 2.3 longer than that route. But Pickering at best would be 16.4 additional kms.

I edited my post to be more accurate. But the main point of my post was to show that MCC was considerably closer to union than Pickering was and that municipal boundaries didn’t stop other subway projects.

In the case of Mississauga, honestly any subway extension there is up to them. IIRC it was Hazel that denied any service expansion of the TTC into Mississauga because "Mississauga is its own city with its unique identity that don't need no subway from Toronto"

 

[sixrings]

In the case of Mississauga, honestly any subway extension there is up to them. IIRC it was Hazel that denied any service expansion of the TTC into Mississauga because "Mississauga is its own city with its unique identity that don't need no subway from Toronto"

Despite naming every dang thing in our city after Hazel, her days are gone. Hazel isn't going to be planning Mississauga from her grave. We need to move forward and we have had a new mayor for over 7 years. Times change and things change. The real question is what does Bonnie think of a subway.

 

[afransen]

Isn't it really a matter of what the province thinks? Since when do they care what mayors have to say?

 

[ARG1]

Isn't it really a matter of what the province thinks? Since when do they care what mayors have to say?

Well the reason why York Region is getting so many subway extensions is because the region wants it. The reason why Mississauga never got a western extension of Line 2 despite it being proposed, is because they didn't want it.

Despite naming every dang thing in our city after Hazel, her days are gone. Hazel isn't going to be planning Mississauga from her grave. We need to move forward and we have had a new mayor for over 7 years. Times change and things change. The real question is what does Bonnie think of a subway.

From what I understand of Mississauga, even though Hazel is long gone, a lot of her policies and her cult like status isn't. As such, a lot of her principles like "Mississauga First" and "The Mississauga Identity" are alive and well.

 

[sixrings]

Well the reason why York Region is getting so many subway extensions is because the region wants it. The reason why Mississauga never got a western extension of Line 2 despite it being proposed, is because they didn't want it.

From what I understand of Mississauga, even though Hazel is long gone, a lot of her policies and her cult like status isn't. As such, a lot of her principles like "Mississauga First" and "The Mississauga Identity" are alive and well.

People can appreciate hazel for what she did but at at the same time not agree with every decision she made or every stance she has.

Nothing about York region screams that they have given up or want to be second fiddle. You can want to be Mississauga first and at the same time recognize to be first you shouldn’t be the last 905 area to get a subway. By connecting to the network you help others get to Mississauga. See how that sounds Mississauga first.

Again Bonnie is in charge. And if anything we know that the mayor in Mississauga has a lot of pull. What is her position on this.

 

[ARG1]

People can appreciate hazel for what she did but at at the same time not agree with every decision she made or every stance she has.

Nothing about York region screams that they have given up or want to be second fiddle. You can want to be Mississauga first and at the same time recognize to be first you shouldn’t be the last 905 area to get a subway. By connecting to the network you help others get to Mississauga. See how that sounds Mississauga first.

Again Bonnie is in charge. And if anything we know that the mayor in Mississauga has a lot of pull. What is her position on this.

As far as I know (I don't live there so I can't say anything with 100% certainty) is that Bonnie is sort of Hazel 2.0 and is continuing a lot of her policies. That's kind of the point I was trying to make, that even though Hazel is technically gone, her spirit is still alive and well.

 

[sixrings]

As far as I know (I don't live there so I can't say anything with 100% certainty) is that Bonnie is sort of Hazel 2.0 and is continuing a lot of her policies. That's kind of the point I was trying to make, that even though Hazel is technically gone, her spirit is still alive and well.

Well even the conservatives are for subways subways subways since they realized it spurs developers, side deals, gives good ribbon cutting photo ops and increases tax bases. Bonnie would have to be the only person in the room to be anti subway at this point.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Surely you want to be further west than Dufferin if you're going to do a Lake to 401 subway of that scale?

I mean you're barely a few streets over from the University line.

Run it up Keele/Weston Road or run it up Royal York if you want to be properly inclusive.

Dufferin?

The area is already served by a GO line, so the OL also going through the area seems like overkill to me.

I'd much rather see southern Etobicoke served by an LRT line between Exhibition OL Station and Long Branch (roughly speaking) via the TTC Queensway ROW. It'll be very cost effective, and would provide area residents with a quick one-transfer ride to the downtown core.

If we design this thing right, the LRT would only have two traffic lights between Exhibition Station and the dense residential developments at Park Lawn (circled on @EnviroTO's map).

West of Park Lawn, the LRT would interact with more traffic lights, however I'm not as concerned about that given the relatively modest ridership we'd see in that area (I suppose we could elevate it if necessary, but that seems like overkill).

LRT capacity could be an issue though. Such a convenient connection from Park Lawn to the Downtown core would induce a lot of Downtown-bound demand from this already very dense area. We'd likely have to figure out how to run the LRV's in two car sets, without impeding the operations of the TTC legacy streetcar network.

As for the Ontario Line, it absolutely needs to travel up Dufferin. It's one of our busiest, most unreliable and slowest bus routes in the city. The Ontario Line is pretty much the one and only opportunity we have to fix Dufferin Street transit.

I'm bored, so I made a map (it's 2 AM... I really should go to sleep)

View attachment 395503'
The LRT line from my last post shown in red, GO in green, and the OL in blue.

Looking at this map, I'm just realizing how insanely well used the Dufferin Subway would be.

Starting from the south, we'd likely see 10 stations:

• King West and Queen West stations would be very well used, because... well, its King and Queen west. Also, Liberty Village.
• Dundas station would see modest, but still very good ridership, due to its streetcar connection. But I'm sure this area would see huge intensification with the subway.
• College Station would serve both Dufferin Mall and the College Streetcar, so this would be tremendously busy. Dufferin Mall is already one of the busiest malls in the city. Dufferin Mall also has plenty of intensification planed around it, which would further drive ridership.
• Bloor-Dufferin Station would be amongst the most used stations on the subway network. Almost anyone travelling on Line 2 from west of Dufferin to the Downtown core would transfer to the Ontario Line. Heavy residential intensification is already planned for the area, and I wouldn't be surprised to see commercial and office intensification as well with the Ontario Line (the proximity to Downtown and Line 2 would make this an extremely attractive location of commercial and office use). This would also relieve Line 2 crowding, which would make Line 2 western extension more viable.
• The area around Dupont and Dufferin is also seeing heavy intensification with the new Gallery redevelopment. And this is an area that could easily absorb more intensification. This would be a very busy station
• Davenport would see merely modest ridership, with one relatively low ridership bus route, and not a whole lot of intensification.
• St Clair would connect to the streetcar, and the surrounding area is already pretty dense. Riders of the 512 would favour the Ontario Line over Line 1 to access the Downtown core.
• Rogers would see only modest ridership.
• Eglinton station would connect to Line 5, and generate a pretty large number of transfers from Crosstown West. It would also connect to the busy 29 Dufferin bus, which would continue to run between Eglinton and Wilson.

It’s also worth noting that the Dufferin Subway would massively reduce crowding on our streetcar network.

I would suggest continuing the line north on Dufferin towards Sheppard (perhaps elevated), but the proximity to the Spadina Line would eliminate that opportunity. We continue to pay the price for putting the Spadina Line on Allen Road.

Anyways, to compensate for our Spadina Line mistake, I'd perhaps look into installing some kind of BRT for the 29 Dufferin. Given the proximity to rapid transit and the 401, the areas of Dufferin north of Eglinton are suitable for huge North York Centre-style intensification, but it's growth potential is kneecapped by traffic congestion, and poor accessibility to the Spadina Line. So in my mind a Dufferin North BRT absolutely should happen if the Ontario Line reaches Dufferin/Eglinton.

Nevertheless, even with the Ontario Line terminating at Dufferin/Eglinton, the Eglinton to Exhibition segment would be extremely well used. We'd likely see in excess of 15,000 riders at the busiest point of this extension (southbound into Exhibition) in the AM rush hour in 2041, and I feel like that’s a rather modest prediction given Dufferin’s intensification potential.

The Dufferin corridor in general just has so much potential for urban intensification with the introduction of this subway line. Dare I say it, the Ontario Line on Dufferin Street could far exceed the growth that the Yonge Line created for North York Centre. It's a longer corridor that's already seeing huge growth, even without the subway. And Dufferin would be even more attractive than North York Centre for commercial and office development. In time, Dufferin could become the single densest corridor in the city outside the Downtown core (perhaps in terms of population and jobs).

If it wasn't for the Yonge Line being completely over capacity, Dufferin Street would be #1 priority for a subway extension. In my mind, no other potential subway corridor is primed to be as heavily used, or as transformational in terms of land use. Not even the Ontario Line north extension to Sheppard.

So, yeah, I'm probably Toronto's #1 fan of a Dufferin Street subway right now

Edit: Added the Dufferin North BRT because I couldn't help myself and because it makes too much sense.

View attachment 395507

I agree with @afransen that this should be in the west thread, but just quickly. I see the argument for all the corridors, far west, Dundas/Roncescalles/Weston, and Dufferin. Why not go along the rail corridor for the OL and Build a new subway line on Dufferin? It could go from Eglinton to Lakeshore, connecting as a transfer point to the OL. Why not extend the WWLRT via the Queensway to Port Credit? Lots of ways to solve multiple issues here.

From the other thread