OneCity Plan

[weekend_guy]

There were two parts to One City, one I think is very important, and the other which I think was useless baggage that ultimately served as an anchor to sink the plan.

The important part was to start a dialogue on how to pay for transit expansion. Had Stintz and De Baeremaker focused the discussion on the rate of property tax increase (or other fiscal tools) and the timeframe for implementation, and left the drawing of lines on a map alone, I would be much more supportive. The trouble is that they had to marry what could have been a very worthwile discussion on financial tools to every politician's wet dream of planning where routes would go. Of course, planning routes by drawing lines on a map sure is fun - witness how almost all of the debate in this thread was on the selection of routes and not on the tax policy - but Solid Snake is right: suggesting routes and technologies is a job that politicians need to be pried away from, no matter how much of a photo-op, publicity stunt, or fun job it is.

Well said and agreed 100%. The job of our local politicians should be to secure the funding and develop the financing structure, while leaving the designs to the technical folks. As you said, the line drawing is a lot more fun but it doesn't fall within their bailiwick.

 

[Electrify]

Just a recap about the SRT drama, as this would likely be the key project of OneCity in the short term due to the construction timeline and the lifespan of the line itself:

- When Ford debuted his transit "strategy," it DID include a subway extension from Kennedy to Scarborough Centre. If anyone is a flip-flopper in all this, it is Ford.

- The province made a compromise with Ford to convert the SRT into an extension of the Eglinton line, on the condition that he brings it before council.

- Because he did not do this, Stintz moved ahead to revert back to the Transit City plans, after Ford rejected many face saving compromises. These included a separated Eglinton and Scarborough lines, as Ford's strategy never considered how a connected line would affect congestion of the Yonge line through North Toronto.

- Stintz has since figured out a way to extend the Danforth subway line in a way which we can afford, something which Ford has never done with his "plans." Gets labelled as a flip-flopper, booed off the stage.

Seeing as this is being postponed until the fall, it seems very unlikely that a Scarborough subway will be constructed and we will be having the SRT shut down for several years instead. If the province and city decided to act now, it is early enough to change course to this new strategy without incurring too much delay or extra costs. By fall it may be too late.

With upcoming elections taking place when the SRT is planning to be shut down, you would think politicians would take a second look at Stintz's strategy.

 

[innsertnamehere]

They don't start serious design of the SRT project until mid 2013, so I think that if they get it through by the spring, no more money would be wasted than what has been spent already.

 

[AKS]

Seeing as this is being postponed until the fall, it seems very unlikely that a Scarborough subway will be constructed and we will be having the SRT shut down for several years instead. If the province and city decided to act now, it is early enough to change course to this new strategy without incurring too much delay or extra costs. By fall it may be too late.

I read in one of the articles that they've already signed off contracts for the trains. There's going to be huge penalties if the contract gets cancelled. It's like paying for the trains we aren't getting. The province seems against it also since the project guideline says it must be completed within a time frame. Starting something new won't meet their criteria.

http://www.nowtoronto.com/news/story.cfm?content=187576

According to provincial transit agency Metrolinx, $40 million has already been spent on designing and planning the Scarborough RT replacement LRT line, and light rail vehicles for the route have already been ordered.

$40 million will be down the drain. I don't think that's a small amount to snuff at.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Nobody made a peep when ford cost the city $150 million in cancellation fees for transit city..

 

[AKS]

Nobody made a peep when ford cost the city $150 million in cancellation fees for transit city..

The papers did report on it. But Ford already did the damage without consultation. He just canned it. I couldn't believe people voted for him... How could he be so careless with money and he claims he's on the tax payers side.

 

[GenerationW]

-It seems OneCity is dead in the sense of the era of having politicians drawing transit maps is officially over.

-Now every past transit plans will be review, every revenue tools will be explored and it's the TTC that will get to draw the map and council will vote on it in October. Finally, NO MORE politicians drawing maps!!!

Officially over? I find that one hard to believe.

 

[syn]

There were two parts to One City, one I think is very important, and the other which I think was useless baggage that ultimately served as an anchor to sink the plan.

The important part was to start a dialogue on how to pay for transit expansion. Had Stintz and De Baeremaker focused the discussion on the rate of property tax increase (or other fiscal tools) and the timeframe for implementation, and left the drawing of lines on a map alone, I would be much more supportive. The trouble is that they had to marry what could have been a very worthwile discussion on financial tools to every politician's wet dream of planning where routes would go. Of course, planning routes by drawing lines on a map sure is fun - witness how almost all of the debate in this thread was on the selection of routes and not on the tax policy - but Solid Snake is right: suggesting routes and technologies is a job that politicians need to be pried away from, no matter how much of a photo-op, publicity stunt, or fun job it is.

Agreed. However, I don't think any discussion on fiscal considerations would've taken place if they didn't have an overall plan to get everyone's attention.

I just wish the city would pick a group of transit experts and let them do the planning.

 

[Thoughtless Miscreant]

If the province and city decided to act now, it is early enough to change course to this new strategy without incurring too much delay or extra costs.

Yeah right. The SRT conversion has been fully designed, funded, undergone EA, and had vehicles ordered. Not a chance in hell a B-D expansion could be built without huge penalties and delays at this point.

 

[W. K. Lis]

I will see OneCity as a brainstorming idea that will lead to other transit ideas. I just hope that transit building will continue, with or without OneCity leading the charge.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

It's unfortunate the debate over BD extension didn't happen earlier (and would have been better yet if it had been so much earlier). That said, given the fact that such a change would have required the city to come up with additional revenue sources, it is hard to see how "the other side" would have supported it when the rhetoric had always been "we don't need taxes". For them to argue otherwise is a bit hypocritical.

AoD

 

[Hipster Duck]

Agreed. However, I don't think any discussion on fiscal considerations would've taken place if they didn't have an overall plan to get everyone's attention.

I just wish the city would pick a group of transit experts and let them do the planning.

You are right that the plan piqued people's interest, although I think it backfired in two ways: it diverted attention away from the much more important discussion of the fiscal measures and it also felt like another "back to the drawing board" retreat to route ideas and alignments that undermined all the previous plans. If there's one thing this city has in abundance it's unimplemented plans. In the end, this was what drove away support from left-leaning councillors who hold the balance of power.

 

[Electrify]

I read in one of the articles that they've already signed off contracts for the trains. There's going to be huge penalties if the contract gets cancelled. It's like paying for the trains we aren't getting. The province seems against it also since the project guideline says it must be completed within a time frame. Starting something new won't meet their criteria.

http://www.nowtoronto.com/news/story.cfm?content=187576



$40 million will be down the drain. I don't think that's a small amount to snuff at.

The trains could be used on other Transit City lines.

Yeah right. The SRT conversion has been fully designed, funded, undergone EA, and had vehicles ordered. Not a chance in hell a B-D expansion could be built without huge penalties and delays at this point.

I asked this question earlier in the thread about how far the conversion was, without much response. If it is as far ahead as you say, I understand and reluctantly support the province's decision to continue ahead with the conversion. While I believe the OneCity design is ultimately better, Toronto's transit history is plagued with countless examples of plans being redrawn multiple times with the result of nothing getting built. As Alvin said, if the subway extension and its financing was put forth years back, it could be a serious option today.

 

[sixrings]

I wish somehow the SRT and Eglinton LRT could still be interlined maybe with larger stop spacing if we cant get a DAnforth Extension. Im not a Ford Fan but I kinda did agree with his "If you wanted a subway you should have voted for eglinton underground when you had the chance." The thing is I wanted a finch lrt as well. This sucks..

 

[AKS]

The trains could be used on other Transit City lines.

Transit city got canned. The only lines that seem still going is Eglinton and the trains have probably already been ordered. The only way the trains could be used would be to create more projects which the city has no funds for and no back up from the province. If the subway is forced and the LRT scraped, the trains would sit and occupy space while the Scarborough project will be behind and later may be canned due to lack of funding. Then nothing will be completed. No added LRT projects, no completed LRT project for Scarborough. There may also be penalties from the other governments for not building it on time. They only agreed to the LRT, not subway and there's a time line. If it's not completed on time, the other govt might ask the city back for money back whichy they provided for the project.